The facts about what actually happened on the “Mavi Marmara” in the early hours of this morning won’t in any way affect the tidal wave of hate and self-righteous condemnation that is descending on Israel but if it interests you then you should read Ron Ben Yishai’s account of events here.
Assuming that he is not making it all up then it would appear that the commandos were engaged in unarmed combat with the, ahem, aid workers for some considerable time before they received permission to use their pistols and that this only occurred after one of the commandos was hurled from the upper deck onto a lower one, suffering serious injury in the process.
The Duke of Marlborough is credited with having said that, “The pursuit of victory without slaughter is likely to produce slaughter without victory”, and that seems to be what happened here, except that in this case it has led to slaughter accompanied by a massive PR defeat and possible political setbacks with otherwise not too unfriendly nations. The use of greater force from the start might have led to one or two hotheads getting killed but might well have kept the final body count down to more manageable proportions.
There’s no doubt that Israel should hold an inquiry into what happened and the first question that it should address is the failure to notice that the “Mavi Marmara” was carrying a considerable number of passengers bent on martyrdom and the second is to find a way to ensure that the desire to avoid bad PR doesn’t lead to operational planning that first, places service personnel in unnecessary danger, second, leads to a lot of people being killed and third, thus causes a massive PR defeat with negative political repercussions too.
UPDATE
The IDF has now released a video which confirms Ben Yishai’s description of the situation prior to the naval commandos receiving permission to use their pistols.
If armed-the-teeth pirates enter your ship in international water next in international water next to Yemen would it be sensible to r=try and push them out? I know that you are sane and that you would have done the same. Never again should a proud Jew like you and me confuse the raped with the rapists.
I don’t understand how Israel can violate international law by boarding an unarmed ship in international waters carrying humanitarian aid - and then flip that around into an attack on Israeli commandos.
Is this what Israeli deterrence has come to? A whiny ‘but they tried to hit back!’ while helicopters, naval gunships and elite commandos storm the decks of an unarmed boat stuffed to the gills with Materna?
Talk about supporting Goliath over David….
All of this Israeli justification for their own piracy does not matter. The MAJOR issue is NO ISRAELI should have been on the boats in the first place
Of course the aid workers tried to fight back! What would you have done if there were helicopters descending and you were being pelted with bullets? Footage shows that people were throwing objects and trying to fight back with sticks. Guns, artillery, commandos vs. civilian men and women with sticks. Hmm…doesn’t exactly seem like a fair fight to me.
Moshe: What’s “a proud Jew”? Why would a Jew be proud of anything he didn’t work for to achieve by his/her own efforts? Why do you assume Eamonn is a Jew? Isn’t it a bit prejudiced to assume that only a Jew would advocate for Israel’s righteousness? Have the “peace activists” (thugs and warmongerers more like) been thus successful in their tricks and propaganda that they can blind even a “proud Jew” such as yourself to what is true?
Had the naval commandos in fact been armed to the teeth and used those arms in an appropriate manner from the start, not waiting till the mob almost overwhelmed them, less people would have been killed.
What exactly, Mr. McDonagh, is an ‘acceptable’ body count? How many non-jews must die to make the counts acceptable to you. Is a body count that is low but includes children and old women okay. I wonder what is a manageable number of deaths in order for Israel to continue to rule those whom Israel has no right to rule?
For you, does any body count that includes the deaths of what you see as scum that dis-agree with the right wing Israeli war machine, and does not bring international condemnation, Qualify as mangeable?
Shame on you and all others that think that killing innocents is okay as long as the events turn out to be ‘manageable’ politically and in the press. Shame on you indeed.
I supported Israel since I was a child in the early 60’s up until the Gaza hatefest of 2008. Now I regret that I helped make possible all of the hatred and death that Israel stands for today. What a bummer.
Not surprising that right-wing Zionists are in a rush to justify the slaughter of humanitarian aid workers. Sixty-three years worth of colonial aggression and racist militarism and arrogance have taught the defenders of Israel to justify any and every crime. And we wonder why the whole world despises poor little Israel.
Noga meydaleh: in my (obviously subjective) understanding “a proud Jew” is an anti-Nazi Jew. An anti-Nazi Jew cannot support armed and helicopterized piracy in international waters over civilian ship. let me say that as anti-Nazi Jew I would have certainly throw you into the water if you would attach my exodus in international water. what’s so hard to understand? Don’t out brothers and sisters in the Warsaw geto did not try to throw out of the windows the armed Germans that entered their homes? What is the matter with you? have you totally lost your mind as Jew?
Moshe Ben Or instead of trying to portray yourself as an enlightened Jew maybe turn your energies to a study of international law as it pertains to what is known as “contraband of war.” In a war situation (such as that which obtains between Israel and Hamas-controlled Gaza) any of the belligerent parties is entitled to stop (on the high seas) and search any vessel - even a merchant vessel flying a neutral flag - taking goods from a neutral country to an enemy country. The search may result in the confiscation of goods and their destruction or the impounding of the goods. It is the duty of everyone - repeat everyone - on board that neutral vessel to co-operate with the search and not to impede it in any way whatsoever. Whilst the neutral country from which the vessel set sail (in this case, I understand, Turkey) is under no obligation to prevent the vessel leaving port, neither has it the right to intervene on behalf of those (even if they are its citizens) whose goods and vessels are seized.
Moishe: leaving aside that pathological contempt that seems to typify any anti-Israeli fulminator when he wants to pretend he is not antisemitic, what you are saying can be boiled down to this:
Warsaw ghetto Jews were fighting the Nazis because the Nazis
would not allow “humanitarian” supplies to enter the ghetto. Right?
Shay, can you give me a link to any document that is a declaration of war by Israel against Gaza? Also, can you post a link to any document by any Palestinian that is a declaration of war?
I can’t find either one on line. I did find references in Israeli documents referring to ‘police action’ but no declaration of war.
So who is Israel in declared wars with? Who can they rightly stop on the high seas? Anyone at any time for any reason? Anywhere in any waters in the world?
And when exactly did Gaza become a country. Or even a territory, or protectorate?
Noga, nice post. I am pondering now the parallels between Jews fighting for life in Ghetto’s and Gazans fighting for their lives in their ghetto’s. Interesting…
Emmit, Noga was reducing Moshe’s argument to the absurdity that it is.
Also, nations need not officially declare war in order to enter hostilities. The United States Congress has only ever officially declared war a handful times but the United States military has been involved in many more hostilities and conflicts governed by international law.
I also made a response to your question in Ben’s more recent post:
Under the law of war, a state which has imposed a naval blockade may interdict a properly flagged merchant vessel on the high seas if it has a reasonable belief that said vessel is attempted to breach the blockade.
In this case, Israel had every reason to believe that the Turkish ship was attempting to breach its blockade of HAMAS-ruled Gaza.
“Also, can you post a link to any document by any Palestinian that is a declaration of war?”
Sorry, one more Emmit: have you seen the HAMAS Charter? If that isn’t a declaration of permanent war then I’m the Pope!
One fact remains above all: the IDF was in control. They could have refrained from descending onto the deck of the ship. They had all the other vessels under control, and could have used their own ships to guide an uncooperative crew to a port of their choice.
But the IDF did not proceed this way.
Perhaps it was an error of tactics, as one Israeli journalist proposed. Sending men, one at a time, onto the deck of a ship covered with those you are trying to control, without any cover of any kind, is a major tactical error.
But more to the point, how was it the deck was covered by civilians, when they should have been sleeping? What brought them up, massed, and ready to fight?
The edited videos do not provide us with insight into the preceeding period of time. Were shots fired?
We do know the Israel initially lied about arms being found on the ship, which they corrected only after Turkey explained to the world the searches and metal detectors used to ensure the ships carried no weapons.
It is my opinion Israel is continuing to lie by the use of these videos, even though they clearly depict a confrontation between the activists and the IDF. Until we understand the time period before these videos, until we know for sure the IDF did not open fire before being attacked, I believe we must side with the civilians. And this is because it was the decision of the IDF to make contact with the boat, in a manner of their choosing. Their decision, their responsibility.
“It is my opinion Israel is continuing to lie by the use of these videos, even though they clearly depict a confrontation between the activists and the IDF.”
The videos contradict your image of Israelis as vicious monsters so either the videos are lies or your eyes are betraying you, John.
According to the San Remo Manual:
“67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:
(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;
(b) engage in belligerent acts on behalf of the enemy;
(c) act as auxiliaries to the enemy s armed forces;
(d) are incorporated into or assist the enemy s intelligence system;
(e) sail under convoy of enemy warships or military aircraft; or
(f) otherwise make an effective contribution to the enemy s military action, e.g., by carrying military materials, and it is not feasible for the attacking forces to first place passengers and crew in a place of safety. Unless circumstances do not permit, they are to be given a warning, so that they can re-route, off-load, or take other precautions.”
Ganselmi,
I was reducing Noga’s comment to its core. It did make me draw parralels.
As for international law and declartons of war, I am learning here today that under international law Israeli boats can board anyone at any time on the high seas because everyone hates Israel? Can you tell me if there are boats that can get close to the water boarder without being considered enemies, even if they are not beligerent?
Boy hatred hatches the ugliest of things, doesn’t it.
Such a shame, all of this is done in the interest of keeping a people penned up in a ghetto under the boot of Israel. It makes it hard to be a Jew. Those Gazan’s are humans, much as Israel may hate them. Humans deserving of some consideration, if for no other reason than their humanity. They have not ALL shot rockets into Israel.
I despise killing and hatred. The action at sea recently will do nothing to reduce either, nor will it increase the security of Israel.
Perhaps it was justified under some law or some political theory, but in practice, as the world will see it, it was an act of violence perpetrated on the high seas by invading heavily armed soldiers against un-armed or lightly armed civilians.
Considering that it was all good and honkey dorey with international law then I guess that the killings were good? Well deserved? Justified? Unfortunate but necessary? Inevitable since the day the ships left Turkey? A good thing? The right thing? Something those dead people brought onto themselves?
I think that the whole thing was stupid. You can disable a ship without killing or boarding. And it is clear to the world that we are starving Palestinians and granting them no human rights and we are doing everything we possibly can to make things worse, not better, taking their lands as much as possible, and generally treating our enemies as non-humans.
Oh we will go far, to the point of killing and killing and killing to take what is ‘ours’ that used to be ‘thiers’. We will justify it by saying our god is rightous and theirs is not, or that our god gave us this land and their god is an abberation, or that we were afraid of them and we hate them because they hate us.
And we will do it all under international law as long as that law works in our favor.
Nice.
But I suppose that anything to hold down the enemy is okay.
I guess…..
“It did make me draw parralels.”
How about letting us hear your point by point analysis of such parallel?
I hope that the next ship attacked by armed pirates while in international waters is armed to the teeth.
Ganselmi,
Until Palestine is a country, they can not declare war on anyone. Under international law, those who you occupy are technically citizens, where it pertains to rights by the state and human rights. So the idea that the hamas document is a declaration of war under international law does not hold up. It is a declaraton by citizens/terrorists/freedom fighters who would love to have their own country so that they could declare war. Hate them or not they are a people without a country. They are an occupied people, not a country. International law as pertains to war pertains to countries, not to individuals or groups that want their own country but do not have one.
And as international law goes, the stupid blockade is illeagle in the first place.
“They have not ALL shot rockets into Israel.”
No, of course not. But how do you propose to distinguish between those who shoot and those among whom the shooters shoot? And how to stop the shooters who intermingle on purpose with the non-shooters? Should Israelis simply suffer themselves to be shot at, so as not to harm any non-shooter when going after the shooters?
It’s not hard to be Jewish in Israel. No one gives it a second thought. It’s only Jews like you who feel the burden of their Jewishness and wish someone would alleviate it, even if that someone is an Israeli child being shot at by shooters who hide among non-shooters in Gaza.
What price should Israelis undertake to pay the price so that Emmitt Mak should lighten his Jewish burden?
Google : War on Gaza,
I think you will find enough references.
“They have not ALL shot rockets into Israel.”
Are you serious?
If they have no sovereign control of their people and land then the next responsible sovereign (Democratic) country should take action i.e Israel.
Reading the Blogossphere today, it is sometimes difficult to remember that Israelis are always the victims. Thank you all for putting that right.
It’s astonishing how much noise is being made over this incident.
Remember the South Korean ship torpedoed a couple of months back? Almost fifty dead, murdered on the high seas… an astoundingly brazen act of war by a rogue state and nuclear weapons proliferator…
Or the hundreds of Nigerian Christian villagers who were chased like helpless animals into nets in the middle of the night and chopped into pieces by fanatical, machete-wielding gangs of Mohammedans?
Or the thousands and thousands who have died and continue to suffer hunger and die in Sudan (Darfur and South Sudan) at the hands of government-backed Islamicists?
Or the demonstrators that were beaten, shot, arrested and hung in Iran just a couple of months ago in the name of a supremacist Shia Islamic regime? Have you heard any meaningful, sustained outcry in the world of Islam – or anywhere else, for that matter – over that?
One could go on and on and on and on. The point is: The silence from the U.N. Security Council, the EU, the OIC, the BRIC nations and even the United States is virtually always deafening… unless, of course, it’s a question of attacking and condemning Israel. On that, the world can come together in an instant; here there is always unanimity about the “pressing need” to take punitive action, to make sure the right people (“those Jews”) know they are the “scum of the earth”…
No, the only thing that can explain all this hypocritical hand-wringing is really ugly, plain old-fashioned anti-Semitism, pure and simple, nowadays parading primarily in the guise of the piety of the fanatical followers of Mohammed. It’s disgusting that so many can get so worked up about this “humanitarian flotilla” and yet so completely ignore the massive human rights violations (murders, rapes, wife-beatings, etc., etc.) perpetrated daily in the name of the “Prophet of Islam” whose “exemplary” Jew-slaughter in Khaibar was so zealously celebrated in the joyously agitated chants of the flotilla passengers only hours before they launched into their fateful “jihad” to “liberate” their Hamas kin in Gaza.
Simply despicable!
Speaking of paralells, I was just considering Exodus ship, 1947. Wow.
was this accident provocated by hamas? if so, why israel was not prepeared for that and acted exactly according to the hamas plan?
“I was just considering Exodus ship, 1947. Wow.”
I suppose this is what passes for the latest version of Jew baiting:
“Exodus 1947 was a ship that carried Jewish emigrants, that left France on July 11, 1947, with the intent of taking its passengers to Mandate Palestine. Most of the emigrants were Holocaust survivor refugees, who had no legal immigration certificates to Palestine. Following wide media coverage, the British Royal Navy seized the ship, and deported all its passengers back to Europe.”
Visual Parallels:
http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/fr/IMG/jpg/44_2-2.jpg
http://www.solomonia.com/blog/images/2010/05/peaceful_flotilla_terrorist.shtml