Comments on: How to Make Life Easy for J-Street’s Detractors http://blog.z-word.com/2009/10/how-to-make-life-easy-for-j-street%e2%80%99s-detractors/ Commentary about Zionism, anti-Zionism, antisemitism and the conflict in the Middle East Sun, 14 Mar 2010 08:49:35 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5-RC1.1 By: Paul Malin http://blog.z-word.com/2009/10/how-to-make-life-easy-for-j-street%e2%80%99s-detractors/#comment-7680 Paul Malin Tue, 27 Oct 2009 22:25:04 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=1439#comment-7680 I also followed Ben Ami's link to Woodward's website and was disgusted by what he'd linked to. What bothers me about J-Street is not the idea of being a critical supporter of Israel, or that they might want to advocate for Israel in a different way than AIPAC. It's that they seem to be rather light minded about the boundary between critical support and outright enmity. An organization that can link to Woodward's website, can't tell Stephen Walt what to do with his endorsement, provides a home for people like Bernard Avishai and meeting space for the likes of Philip Weiss and Helena Cobban, and (according to today's Jerusalem Post) addresses the problem of anti-Zionism on campus by shedding "pro-Israel" from its "pro-Israel, pro-peace" slogan, has a credibility gap. J-Street seems intent on reenacting the train wreck of the wider left, which is very clear about its antagonism to all things right but doesn't know its limits at the other end of the spectrum. I also followed Ben Ami’s link to Woodward’s website and was disgusted by what he’d linked to.

What bothers me about J-Street is not the idea of being a critical supporter of Israel, or that they might want to advocate for Israel in a different way than AIPAC. It’s that they seem to be rather light minded about the boundary between critical support and outright enmity. An organization that can link to Woodward’s website, can’t tell Stephen Walt what to do with his endorsement, provides a home for people like Bernard Avishai and meeting space for the likes of Philip Weiss and Helena Cobban, and (according to today’s Jerusalem Post) addresses the problem of anti-Zionism on campus by shedding “pro-Israel” from its “pro-Israel, pro-peace” slogan, has a credibility gap.

J-Street seems intent on reenacting the train wreck of the wider left, which is very clear about its antagonism to all things right but doesn’t know its limits at the other end of the spectrum.

]]> By: Dvar Dea http://blog.z-word.com/2009/10/how-to-make-life-easy-for-j-street%e2%80%99s-detractors/#comment-7677 Dvar Dea Tue, 27 Oct 2009 17:29:40 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=1439#comment-7677 Adler, just what is the target audience of such an evasive response? I also argued that Brit Tzedek v’Shalom live in a bubble and they are selective in their view of history. I brought arguments and examples for each. And Blumenthal is a member of J Street; while it is quite possible he is just one view out of many, who is his counterweight? If someone like JBA has to march rightwards as far as Fox news in order to appear centric, just how far left of center was his original position? Adler, just what is the target audience of such an evasive response?
I also argued that Brit Tzedek v’Shalom live in a bubble and they are selective in their view of history. I brought arguments and examples for each.
And Blumenthal is a member of J Street; while it is quite possible he is just one view out of many, who is his counterweight?
If someone like JBA has to march rightwards as far as Fox news in order to appear centric, just how far left of center was his original position?

]]> By: David Adler http://blog.z-word.com/2009/10/how-to-make-life-easy-for-j-street%e2%80%99s-detractors/#comment-7674 David Adler Tue, 27 Oct 2009 14:33:49 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=1439#comment-7674 Dvar - I got to the point where you call Brit Tzedek v'Shalom a far left organization, so I'll stop there and say if BTvS is far left, then by your standards I'm far left. Which is to say that your standards are skewed. I'll also note that Max Blumenthal, in addition to attacking Eli Wiesel, attacked Jeremy Ben-Ami as well. Dvar - I got to the point where you call Brit Tzedek v’Shalom a far left organization, so I’ll stop there and say if BTvS is far left, then by your standards I’m far left. Which is to say that your standards are skewed.

I’ll also note that Max Blumenthal, in addition to attacking Eli Wiesel, attacked Jeremy Ben-Ami as well.

]]> By: Dvar Dea http://blog.z-word.com/2009/10/how-to-make-life-easy-for-j-street%e2%80%99s-detractors/#comment-7664 Dvar Dea Tue, 27 Oct 2009 07:25:32 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=1439#comment-7664 Knee jerk? J I may have been telegraphic, but what I wrote is a summation of matters I gave a lot of thought to. As you can see from my blog: this criticism is about ‘Brit Tzedeck v’Shalom’, the grass roots infrastructure of J Street, lengthy and thorough, doubtful you have the time to read it all. http://dvardea.blogspot.com/search/label/Brit%20Tzedek%20v%27Shalom%20btvs But this is just the face of such groups, the façade, which by itself is lacking in credibility. It’s the content of their actions that counts the most, such as Max Blumenthal, which JBA has a good view of, http://dvardea.blogspot.com/2009/07/max-blumental-yoav-shamir-cruising-for.html Or their opposition to ‘Cast Lead’, where we had to respond to a clear provocation. How about mocking Eli Wiesl? http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2009/10/elie_wiesel_mocked_at_j_street.asp Or what they truly feel about JBA pseudo Zionist gestures? And more, there is always more, more of the same, lack of credibility and the persistence presence of anti Zionist activity. Knee jerk? J
I may have been telegraphic, but what I wrote is a summation of matters I gave a lot of thought to. As you can see from my blog: this criticism is about ‘Brit Tzedeck v’Shalom’, the grass roots infrastructure of J Street, lengthy and thorough, doubtful you have the time to read it all.

http://dvardea.blogspot.com/search/label/Brit%20Tzedek%20v%27Shalom%20btvs

But this is just the face of such groups, the façade, which by itself is lacking in credibility. It’s the content of their actions that counts the most, such as Max Blumenthal, which JBA has a good view of, http://dvardea.blogspot.com/2009/07/max-blumental-yoav-shamir-cruising-for.html
Or their opposition to ‘Cast Lead’, where we had to respond to a clear provocation.

How about mocking Eli Wiesl?
http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2009/10/elie_wiesel_mocked_at_j_street.asp

Or what they truly feel about JBA pseudo Zionist gestures?
And more, there is always more, more of the same, lack of credibility and the persistence presence of anti Zionist activity.

]]> By: Petra http://blog.z-word.com/2009/10/how-to-make-life-easy-for-j-street%e2%80%99s-detractors/#comment-7660 Petra Tue, 27 Oct 2009 04:07:28 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=1439#comment-7660 David, this is a widely quoted commentary I very much agree with: http://volokh.com/2009/10/24/some-friendly-really-advice-to-jstreet/ -- what I write here is simply an illustration that while JStreet complains a lot about getting unfair criticism -- and of course anyone who criticizes them is denounced as right-wing, neocon or otherwise satanic --, they are plainly doing quite a bit themselves to deserve criticism even from a mainstream perspective. And I don't quite agree with you that this was likely just a "careless move" by JBA. Ask yourself how he came across Woodward's post (which is from January), and if we don't want to assume that he reads his website regularly, it seems the most likely scenario is that somebody on JStreet does, and saved the post in some background research file as a handy example of the supposed deviousness of the Israeli government. David, this is a widely quoted commentary I very much agree with:
http://volokh.com/2009/10/24/some-friendly-really-advice-to-jstreet/
– what I write here is simply an illustration that while JStreet complains a lot about getting unfair criticism — and of course anyone who criticizes them is denounced as right-wing, neocon or otherwise satanic –, they are plainly doing quite a bit themselves to deserve criticism even from a mainstream perspective.
And I don’t quite agree with you that this was likely just a “careless move” by JBA. Ask yourself how he came across Woodward’s post (which is from January), and if we don’t want to assume that he reads his website regularly, it seems the most likely scenario is that somebody on JStreet does, and saved the post in some background research file as a handy example of the supposed deviousness of the Israeli government.

]]> By: David Adler http://blog.z-word.com/2009/10/how-to-make-life-easy-for-j-street%e2%80%99s-detractors/#comment-7643 David Adler Mon, 26 Oct 2009 21:44:58 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=1439#comment-7643 Ok Petra, I now see that Ben-Ami did urge Goldblog readers to read Woodward's post - probably a careless move, and I do agree that J Street should do its utmost to reject the fringe left view of Israel. If I leap to J-Street's defense it's because of unfair, knee-jerk, demonizing views of the group, precisely the kind articulated by commenter Dvar Dea above. Ok Petra, I now see that Ben-Ami did urge Goldblog readers to read Woodward’s post - probably a careless move, and I do agree that J Street should do its utmost to reject the fringe left view of Israel.

If I leap to J-Street’s defense it’s because of unfair, knee-jerk, demonizing views of the group, precisely the kind articulated by commenter Dvar Dea above.

]]> By: Dvar Dea http://blog.z-word.com/2009/10/how-to-make-life-easy-for-j-street%e2%80%99s-detractors/#comment-7640 Dvar Dea Mon, 26 Oct 2009 20:45:00 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=1439#comment-7640 It seems to me that JBA raises his lips service to Zionism to the level of token gestures. But the core reminds the same, an anti Zionist core. His choice of authority and guests are those who regard the vary existence of Israel as a crime. He and the core members of his group are Palestinian ultra nationalist pretending to be Zionist doves. It seems to me that JBA raises his lips service to Zionism to the level of token gestures. But the core reminds the same, an anti Zionist core. His choice of authority and guests are those who regard the vary existence of Israel as a crime. He and the core members of his group are Palestinian ultra nationalist pretending to be Zionist doves.

]]> By: How to Make Life Easy for J-Street’s Detractors | JewPI http://blog.z-word.com/2009/10/how-to-make-life-easy-for-j-street%e2%80%99s-detractors/#comment-7638 How to Make Life Easy for J-Street’s Detractors | JewPI Mon, 26 Oct 2009 18:29:43 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=1439#comment-7638 [...] to the organization’s currently ongoing conference was provided by The Atlantic’s Jeffrey Read More » Share and Enjoy:Tags: Bigman, controversy, detractors, J Street, marquardt Categories: Blogs, [...] […] to the organization’s currently ongoing conference was provided by The Atlantic’s Jeffrey Read More » Share and Enjoy:Tags: Bigman, controversy, detractors, J Street, marquardt Categories: Blogs, […]

]]> By: Petra http://blog.z-word.com/2009/10/how-to-make-life-easy-for-j-street%e2%80%99s-detractors/#comment-7636 Petra Mon, 26 Oct 2009 18:02:37 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=1439#comment-7636 Hi David, I'm in no way "tarring" Ben-Ami with the likes of Counterpunch etc.; if I'm tarring anyone with those, it's Woodward -- but he really tarred himself and his site, because he put them on his blogroll. Also, I agree with you that in the interview with Goldberg, Ben-Ami was indeed very clear in his rejection of anti-Zionism and the "1state solution". But that's not really the issue here in my view: the issue is that on a very popular blog like Goldberg's, he gave an interview in which he made a mistake, and instead of just saying: oops, I didn't get that quite right, he attempted to justify this mistake by sending readers to a site run by a guy who professes interest in a rather broad subject, but writes remarkably much on Israel, its supposedly "all powerful" lobby, its supposedly prominent role in the organ trade, etc. -- I trust you get the idea. Even worse, Ben-Ami urges readers to read a post that, in a completely screwed-up attempt at "reasoning", accuses Israel of a propaganda campaign to obscure figures, and from what Ben-Ami wrote to Goldberg's readers, he was clearly endorsing this baseless attempt at smear. I have no idea why he did that, and I have no idea why he would even know about the site of Woodward and why he would think a guy who writes the kind of "editorials" Woodward likes to write would be worthwhile quoting -- but that's what Ben-Ami did very publicly on Goldberg blog. I certainly hope that Woodward's "editorials" are not something that Ben-Ami regularly reads and agrees with. Just one more point on the blogs: there is a group of bloggers including the Mondoweiss guys, the "Mother from Gaza", Laila El-Hadad who is a one-stater and Hamas supporter, and a few other bloggers with anti-Zionist leanings whom J-Street has apparently allowed to feel "hosted" by them, i.e. they get a room to group-blog from the conference or something of the sort. It seems that their idea was that J-Street somehow represented at least part of their ideology. However, they are apparently cooling, and will no doubt produce the criticism from the fringe left Ben-Ami said he wanted. Only by linking to a guy like Woodward, who would fit quite well into this group, Ben-Ami is in my view not doing enough to deserve the left-fringe criticism he was hoping for. Hi David, I’m in no way “tarring” Ben-Ami with the likes of Counterpunch etc.; if I’m tarring anyone with those, it’s Woodward — but he really tarred himself and his site, because he put them on his blogroll.
Also, I agree with you that in the interview with Goldberg, Ben-Ami was indeed very clear in his rejection of anti-Zionism and the “1state solution”. But that’s not really the issue here in my view: the issue is that on a very popular blog like Goldberg’s, he gave an interview in which he made a mistake, and instead of just saying: oops, I didn’t get that quite right, he attempted to justify this mistake by sending readers to a site run by a guy who professes interest in a rather broad subject, but writes remarkably much on Israel, its supposedly “all powerful” lobby, its supposedly prominent role in the organ trade, etc. — I trust you get the idea.

Even worse, Ben-Ami urges readers to read a post that, in a completely screwed-up attempt at “reasoning”, accuses Israel of a propaganda campaign to obscure figures, and from what Ben-Ami wrote to Goldberg’s readers, he was clearly endorsing this baseless attempt at smear.

I have no idea why he did that, and I have no idea why he would even know about the site of Woodward and why he would think a guy who writes the kind of “editorials” Woodward likes to write would be worthwhile quoting — but that’s what Ben-Ami did very publicly on Goldberg blog. I certainly hope that Woodward’s “editorials” are not something that Ben-Ami regularly reads and agrees with.

Just one more point on the blogs: there is a group of bloggers including the Mondoweiss guys, the “Mother from Gaza”, Laila El-Hadad who is a one-stater and Hamas supporter, and a few other bloggers with anti-Zionist leanings whom J-Street has apparently allowed to feel “hosted” by them, i.e. they get a room to group-blog from the conference or something of the sort.
It seems that their idea was that J-Street somehow represented at least part of their ideology. However, they are apparently cooling, and will no doubt produce the criticism from the fringe left Ben-Ami said he wanted.
Only by linking to a guy like Woodward, who would fit quite well into this group, Ben-Ami is in my view not doing enough to deserve the left-fringe criticism he was hoping for.

]]> By: David Adler http://blog.z-word.com/2009/10/how-to-make-life-easy-for-j-street%e2%80%99s-detractors/#comment-7627 David Adler Mon, 26 Oct 2009 15:03:22 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=1439#comment-7627 Take issue with Paul Woodward, by all means - but to tar Jeremy Ben-Ami as somehow associated with the likes of Counterpunch and Jews Sans Frontieres on the basis of someone else's blogroll, and one fleeting link that JBA provided solely for the purposes of pointing readers to Israeli Foreign Ministry data, is misleading in the extreme. Ben-Ami's rejection of antizionism and one-statism could not be any clearer. Take issue with Paul Woodward, by all means - but to tar Jeremy Ben-Ami as somehow associated with the likes of Counterpunch and Jews Sans Frontieres on the basis of someone else’s blogroll, and one fleeting link that JBA provided solely for the purposes of pointing readers to Israeli Foreign Ministry data, is misleading in the extreme. Ben-Ami’s rejection of antizionism and one-statism could not be any clearer.

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