“Why cant Ben White have his say?”

He can.

Ben wrote, previously, above:

“When White apologizes to Jonathan for colluding in this disgraceful antisemitic ban, he can comment here again.”

Now, why don’t you run along and ask White why he doesn’t allow comments on his blog.

Why cant Ben White have his say? Are you scared of what he might say and that you might not be able to refute it?

Aaron Dover
JfJfP

Mitnaged made the accusation about ‘deliberate’, not me.

Your double standard about Ben W not being allowed to post here, but being free to exclude others from his F/B group, is quite breathtaking.

The only sensible thing Jamie has said during his brief sojourn here. Off you go, then.

Exactly, Jamie - why would you want to do anything, like thinking, that might shatter the vulgar Chomskyite world you apparently live in? What a ridiculous suggestion on my part.

Really? Cos one minute he’s accusing White of “deliberately [inciting] hatred against Jews” and the next minute he’s acknowledging that “I don’t know what goes on inside Ben White’s head” and that “[w]hether he [i.e. White] ‘deliberately’ incites hatred against Jews only he [i.e. White] can know”.

“Because it’s going to be a very long - I may say endless - wait.”

I’m not waiting for you to do anything. I simply stated a fact: that unlike James you haven’t retracted your smear.

“And while you’re doing that, ponder whether there are any other states in the world that could credibly be compared to apartheid South Africa.”

And why on earth would I want to do that?

James: I really couldn’t care less whether you are able to post on Ben’s Facebook group - its his property, he can do what he likes with it. And even if I did care, I don’t know Ben or have any influence with him.

“Again, examples please.”

Anyone who’s been involved in online debates on this topic for any length of time will have confronted this rhetorical tactic on many occasions. To be sure, it’s usually not referred to as the ‘Livingstone Formulation’, because like I say that’s a rubbish meme that virtually no one uses, but it’s the same principle. I can’t cite you examples now because only a weirdo would save such trifling offenses to a file. But I’m sure you, or anyone who has engaged in debates on this subject, recognises what I’m talking about. If not, I’m happy to agree to disagree.

“There’s a difference between all those things and ‘criticising Israeli policies’.”

There’s also a difference between those things and antisemitism, which, I can only repeat, is not synonymous with ‘offensive’ or ‘wrong’, but refers specifically to hatred of Jews. Interesting that the goalposts have shifted, by the way: I thought we were discussing Ben’s book, his (’antisemitic’) talk and the (’antisemitic’) decision to exclude Hoffman from that talk. Now you bring up other articles he’s written in the past and challenge me to defend them, like some bizarre free-association condemnathon.

Anyway, I think we’ve all made our positions clear and I’m beginning to repeat myself, so I’m going to leave it here.

‘Let’s not play word games about the meaning of ‘antisemitic’. It’s not synonymous with ‘offensive’ or ‘inaccurate’. It refers quite specifically to the hatred of Jews. I can say that Israel is an apartheid state, and indeed I can make a lengthy argument to that effect, without harbouring even the slightest anti-Jewish prejudice. The same goes for branding Israel a racist state. If you can’t be bothered to address such arguments on their merits that’s fine, but don’t substitute that lack of engagement with cheap smears.’

Jonathan has already made detailed arguments, both in his initial review and in his rejoinder to White’s response, against the contention that Israel is an apartheid or racist state. He has also specifically referred you to the EUMC Working Definition, which specifically says ‘Examples of the ways in which antisemitism manifests itself with regard to the state of Israel taking into account the overall context could include denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavour.’

In other words, he has engaged with the arguments on their merits.

I didn’t make any smear against White. I hsve however been banned by him from posting comments on (or even belonging to) his Facebook group. Perhaps you can push him to apologize and change his mind?

As someone who is Jewish and who is involved in jewish life, I think I have a fair idea of what most Jewish people would find offensive.

Re LF:
‘its use is almost always unjustified, because people are often smeared as anti-Semites solely for criticising the policies of the State of Israel.’ Again, examples please. Point to specific examples made by David Hirsh, me or anyone else which you consider are unjustified.

BW has not been labelled an antisemite simply for criticising Israeli policies. He has been labelled an antisemite for saying he ‘understands’ antisemitism (again: would you be so keen to defend him if he had said he ‘understands’ any other irrational prejudice?), for trying to contextualise Ahmadinejad’s Holocaust Denial, for promoting a boycott of Israeli (and only Israeli) academics. There’s a difference between all those things and ‘criticising Israeli policies’.