Comments on: Remember Pi Glilot? http://blog.z-word.com/2009/03/remember-pi-glilot/ Commentary about Zionism, anti-Zionism, antisemitism and the conflict in the Middle East Wed, 23 May 2012 08:04:01 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5-RC1.1 By: David Adler http://blog.z-word.com/2009/03/remember-pi-glilot/#comment-4372 David Adler Fri, 27 Mar 2009 16:29:29 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=1174#comment-4372 Thank you for responding, Ed. Weighing rights and wrongs does keep me up at night, yes. My wife's stepfather is an Israeli in NYC, and he has two grown children and many grandchildren in Israel. The issue is not abstract for me, nor was it in 2002 when I wrote my letter. The reasoning behind attacking someone like Shehadeh is not a mystery to me. But in that case I do not believe the ends justified the means, and it seems there were even hawkish Israeli officials who reached the same conclusion. Thanks again - DA Thank you for responding, Ed. Weighing rights and wrongs does keep me up at night, yes. My wife’s stepfather is an Israeli in NYC, and he has two grown children and many grandchildren in Israel. The issue is not abstract for me, nor was it in 2002 when I wrote my letter. The reasoning behind attacking someone like Shehadeh is not a mystery to me. But in that case I do not believe the ends justified the means, and it seems there were even hawkish Israeli officials who reached the same conclusion. Thanks again - DA

]]> By: Ed Rettig http://blog.z-word.com/2009/03/remember-pi-glilot/#comment-4370 Ed Rettig Fri, 27 Mar 2009 15:46:48 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=1174#comment-4370 Shalom David, I very much respect your perspective (and getting a letter printed in the NY Times expressing it). Perhaps the difference in our perspectives flows from the difference in our geography. Had Shehadah succeeded, the Pi Glilot attack would have killed my mother and father, my son and daughter in law (you may want to count my grandson who would never have been born), my sister, brother in law and three nieces, and my closest friend. All are civilians. Three were children. All were asleep in the kill zone at the time. There would have been ten thousand (ten thousand!) people like that. Don't tell me you agree with those who, based on the potential for another Pi Glilot that might not have ended so benignly, suggest that killing Shehadeh was a legitimate military goal and that it justified the use of large weapons that would be sure to get the job done, even if in addition to Shehadeh, his wife and children and several of his guards died. Just tell me that the attempt to weigh the rights and wrongs of this event keeps you up at night. Tell me that maybe things aren't as morally clear cut (as simplistic?) as you imagined them. Shabbat shalom, Ed Shalom David, I very much respect your perspective (and getting a letter printed in the NY Times expressing it). Perhaps the difference in our perspectives flows from the difference in our geography. Had Shehadah succeeded, the Pi Glilot attack would have killed my mother and father, my son and daughter in law (you may want to count my grandson who would never have been born), my sister, brother in law and three nieces, and my closest friend. All are civilians. Three were children. All were asleep in the kill zone at the time.

There would have been ten thousand (ten thousand!) people like that.

Don’t tell me you agree with those who, based on the potential for another Pi Glilot that might not have ended so benignly, suggest that killing Shehadeh was a legitimate military goal and that it justified the use of large weapons that would be sure to get the job done, even if in addition to Shehadeh, his wife and children and several of his guards died.

Just tell me that the attempt to weigh the rights and wrongs of this event keeps you up at night. Tell me that maybe things aren’t as morally clear cut (as simplistic?) as you imagined them.

Shabbat shalom,

Ed

]]> By: Jacob http://blog.z-word.com/2009/03/remember-pi-glilot/#comment-4361 Jacob Fri, 27 Mar 2009 01:50:09 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=1174#comment-4361 David isn't the real issue of the post the hypocrisy of a Spanish magistrate launching "an investigation against senior Israeli leaders for crimes against humanity?" If as you say, “Shimon Peres, Moshe Katsav, Ephraim Sneh and Ariel Sharon all voiced dismay over the attack and insisted it should not have happened that way,” then who is going to be charged and for what? When the US decided to go to war against Milosevic we killed many more civilians and yet no one was charged and I didn’t see the Spanish magistrate launch an investigation. “Civilians killed by NATO airstrike” “Yugoslavia claimed that NATO attacks caused between 1,200 and 5,700 civilian casualties. NATO acknowledged killing at most 1,500 civilians. Human Rights Watch counted a minimum of 488 civilian deaths (90 to 150 of them killed from cluster bomb use) in 90 separate incidents. Attacks in Kosovo overall were more deadly - a third of the incidents account for more than half of the deaths.[45]” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War#Civilians_killed_by_NATO_airstrikes Here is a rundown of the bombing campaign: “Civilian casualties during Operation Allied Force” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Targeting_of_civilian_areas_during_Operation_Allied_Force Why are some military campaigns immune from war crime charges while others are not? To me the question of the campaign’s aim should be uppermost on our minds when discussing it. Anyway, whatever the merits of the case, no Spanish magistrate should have the authority to indict citizens of other countries. The last thing we need is an international judicial war. David isn’t the real issue of the post the hypocrisy of a Spanish magistrate launching “an investigation against senior Israeli leaders for crimes against humanity?”

If as you say, “Shimon Peres, Moshe Katsav, Ephraim Sneh and Ariel Sharon all voiced dismay over the attack and insisted it should not have happened that way,” then who is going to be charged and for what?

When the US decided to go to war against Milosevic we killed many more civilians and yet no one was charged and I didn’t see the Spanish magistrate launch an investigation.

“Civilians killed by NATO airstrike”

“Yugoslavia claimed that NATO attacks caused between 1,200 and 5,700 civilian casualties. NATO acknowledged killing at most 1,500 civilians. Human Rights Watch counted a minimum of 488 civilian deaths (90 to 150 of them killed from cluster bomb use) in 90 separate incidents. Attacks in Kosovo overall were more deadly - a third of the incidents account for more than half of the deaths.[45]”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War#Civilians_killed_by_NATO_airstrikes

Here is a rundown of the bombing campaign:

“Civilian casualties during Operation Allied Force”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Targeting_of_civilian_areas_during_Operation_Allied_Force

Why are some military campaigns immune from war crime charges while others are not?

To me the question of the campaign’s aim should be uppermost on our minds when discussing it.

Anyway, whatever the merits of the case, no Spanish magistrate should have the authority to indict citizens of other countries. The last thing we need is an international judicial war.

]]> By: David Adler http://blog.z-word.com/2009/03/remember-pi-glilot/#comment-4345 David Adler Thu, 26 Mar 2009 15:22:14 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=1174#comment-4345 I wrote a published letter to the NY Times in 2002 condemning the civilian deaths in the Shehadeh strike. Shimon Peres, Moshe Katsav, Ephraim Sneh and Ariel Sharon all voiced dismay over the attack and insisted it should not have happened that way. So what's being defended here was not even defended at the time by top Israeli officials. I wrote a published letter to the NY Times in 2002 condemning the civilian deaths in the Shehadeh strike. Shimon Peres, Moshe Katsav, Ephraim Sneh and Ariel Sharon all voiced dismay over the attack and insisted it should not have happened that way. So what’s being defended here was not even defended at the time by top Israeli officials.

]]> By: Fabian from Israel http://blog.z-word.com/2009/03/remember-pi-glilot/#comment-4341 Fabian from Israel Thu, 26 Mar 2009 12:11:45 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=1174#comment-4341 "but can you throw a one ton bomb on a house without expecting some civilian casualties?" I am sorry, why the leader of a terrorist organization lives on a house in the middle of civilians and not in a hole underground? Hamas is responsible for the unintended civilians deaths, because for their part, those deaths were intended. They were human shields. They worked as planned. Indeed Pi Glilot would have been a massacre of a size unimaginable. But nothing would have been enough for the antisemitic europeans. They would have demanded "restraint". “but can you throw a one ton bomb on a house without expecting some civilian casualties?”

I am sorry, why the leader of a terrorist organization lives on a house in the middle of civilians and not in a hole underground? Hamas is responsible for the unintended civilians deaths, because for their part, those deaths were intended. They were human shields. They worked as planned.

Indeed Pi Glilot would have been a massacre of a size unimaginable. But nothing would have been enough for the antisemitic europeans. They would have demanded “restraint”.

]]> By: Albatros http://blog.z-word.com/2009/03/remember-pi-glilot/#comment-4340 Albatros Thu, 26 Mar 2009 11:32:29 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=1174#comment-4340 "Israel used a one ton bomb with the resulting unintended casualties including Shehadeh’s wife and three children" unintended? this Spanish investigation was a sham + the hamas arguments are mere hypocrisy, I agree with the critics here, but can you throw a one ton bomb on a house without expecting some civilian casualties? “Israel used a one ton bomb with the resulting unintended casualties including Shehadeh’s wife and three children”

unintended?

this Spanish investigation was a sham + the hamas arguments are mere hypocrisy, I agree with the critics here, but can you throw a one ton bomb on a house without expecting some civilian casualties?

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