Comments on: Rushing to Judge the IDF http://blog.z-word.com/2009/01/rushing-to-judge-the-idf/ Commentary about Zionism, anti-Zionism, antisemitism and the conflict in the Middle East Tue, 22 May 2012 16:44:12 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5-RC1.1 By: ClapTheHammer http://blog.z-word.com/2009/01/rushing-to-judge-the-idf/#comment-3260 ClapTheHammer Sat, 17 Jan 2009 06:30:58 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=896#comment-3260 Paul Malin. I have to agree 100% with the comment that the EU political establishment has concentrated on allowing Israel to savage Hamas while still criticising Israel in the media. Yes. The lessons of the Lebanese war in 2006 have influenced the EU on how it can bluster while actually giving Israel leeway. A 'wink and a nod' so to speak. But still hypocritical. I do however feel that the pro Hamas elements in the UK are shooting themselves in the foot. The average UK citizen sitting in his armchair watching youths with headscarfs covering their faces and throwing articles at the 'UK bobby' will not earn them any friends. Quite the opposite in fact. Paul Malin.

I have to agree 100% with the comment that the EU political establishment has concentrated on allowing Israel to savage Hamas while still criticising Israel in the media.

Yes. The lessons of the Lebanese war in 2006 have influenced the EU on how it can bluster while actually giving Israel leeway. A ‘wink and a nod’ so to speak.

But still hypocritical.

I do however feel that the pro Hamas elements in the UK are shooting themselves in the foot. The average UK citizen sitting in his armchair watching youths with headscarfs covering their faces and throwing articles at the ‘UK bobby’ will not earn them any friends.

Quite the opposite in fact.

]]> By: Paul Malin http://blog.z-word.com/2009/01/rushing-to-judge-the-idf/#comment-3257 Paul Malin Sat, 17 Jan 2009 03:11:09 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=896#comment-3257 Petra, Thanks for your reply. There's nothing you wrote in it that I would argue with, and I agree that the long-term outlook for Europe's relationship with Israel is depressing and somewhat frightening. It's also not obvious to me that the US will forever remain immune to the same phenomenon. All I was doing, though, was putting down my thoughts about how things were working out in <i>this</i> round of the conflict. Petra,

Thanks for your reply. There’s nothing you wrote in it that I would argue with, and I agree that the long-term outlook for Europe’s relationship with Israel is depressing and somewhat frightening. It’s also not obvious to me that the US will forever remain immune to the same phenomenon.

All I was doing, though, was putting down my thoughts about how things were working out in this round of the conflict.

]]> By: Petra http://blog.z-word.com/2009/01/rushing-to-judge-the-idf/#comment-3256 Petra Sat, 17 Jan 2009 02:43:24 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=896#comment-3256 Paul, I think the points you make are not only very valid, but also very important. However, I still think that the anti-Israel media bias that you acknowledge is more than worrisome -- after all, the media are "opinion makers", as are e.g. the more than 300 British academics and writers who have called for boycotts and other sanctions against Israel. In democratic societies, this kind of "Stimmungsmache", i.e. mood making, really: demagoguery, will eventually also have an effect on governments. I also believe that this climate of "debate" actually contributes to prolonging the conflict: first, rational political debate about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is no longer really possible, because facts are substituted by "narratives". Moreover, the fact that both the fighting now and the Lebanon war in 2006 created such an outburst of hatred against Israel sends one clear signal to Israelis: withdrawing behind legitimate borders means nothing, and in particular, it doesn't give Israel the right to defend these borders. As a result, the Israeli peace camp gets weakened, because it always argues that territorial compromise will bolster Israel's international standing and our security. Well, Hezbollah, Hamas, the commentariat and the anti-Israel protesters do what they can to discredit the arguments of the peace camp. Paul, I think the points you make are not only very valid, but also very important. However, I still think that the anti-Israel media bias that you acknowledge is more than worrisome — after all, the media are “opinion makers”, as are e.g. the more than 300 British academics and writers who have called for boycotts and other sanctions against Israel. In democratic societies, this kind of “Stimmungsmache”, i.e. mood making, really: demagoguery, will eventually also have an effect on governments. I also believe that this climate of “debate” actually contributes to prolonging the conflict: first, rational political debate about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is no longer really possible, because facts are substituted by “narratives”.
Moreover, the fact that both the fighting now and the Lebanon war in 2006 created such an outburst of hatred against Israel sends one clear signal to Israelis: withdrawing behind legitimate borders means nothing, and in particular, it doesn’t give Israel the right to defend these borders. As a result, the Israeli peace camp gets weakened, because it always argues that territorial compromise will bolster Israel’s international standing and our security. Well, Hezbollah, Hamas, the commentariat and the anti-Israel protesters do what they can to discredit the arguments of the peace camp.

]]> By: Paul Malin http://blog.z-word.com/2009/01/rushing-to-judge-the-idf/#comment-3254 Paul Malin Sat, 17 Jan 2009 00:51:43 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=896#comment-3254 Petra, Another of your well thought out and well written articles: Thank you. There's nothing in it that I would disagree with. There's one thing that's beyond the focus of your piece, though, that I think makes a large difference this time. European (and especially British) public opinion is now fairly toxic when it comes to Israel and Jews. Not all of it, but more than enough. The media are quite strongly biased against Israel — perhaps in part they have poisoned themselves as well as their intended audience: Reading their own sensationalised reports year after year must have an effect. However there's another constituency that matters more: Government. It seems pretty clear to me that Israel is not the only government that learned lessons from the second Lebanon war. I think most European governments, after the excitement of playing at international statesmanship to "save" Lebanon had faded, looked at what they had achieved with more realistic eyes. I doubt they were overly concerned for the situation they had placed Israel in, but they can't have failed to see that allowing Hizbullah to claim a victory and strengthening Iran's position in the Middle East was a bad outcome for them too. The result has been that this time round, though Europe has scolded Israel for the sake of appearances, it has done nothing serious to stop it crippling Hamas. Even the ceasefire resolution from the Security Council was done in such a way as to let Israel fight on. Interestingly, the European response is almost identical to the one from Egypt, Saudi Arabia and the PA: A lot of hypocritical hot air and no real pressure. The pressure, if any, will come if the governments of the West decide that Israel has made all the gains it can, before Israel itself reaches the same conclusion. Then they will be only to happy to appear again like the rescuers of innocent Palestinians from an Israel gone berserk. The hypocrisy of allowing Israel to fight the west's fight, whilst denying it the public support of western governments, stinks. Sadly, it's about as much help from Europe as Israel is going to get — but it's an improvement over 2006. Petra,

Another of your well thought out and well written articles: Thank you. There’s nothing in it that I would disagree with. There’s one thing that’s beyond the focus of your piece, though, that I think makes a large difference this time.

European (and especially British) public opinion is now fairly toxic when it comes to Israel and Jews. Not all of it, but more than enough. The media are quite strongly biased against Israel — perhaps in part they have poisoned themselves as well as their intended audience: Reading their own sensationalised reports year after year must have an effect. However there’s another constituency that matters more: Government. It seems pretty clear to me that Israel is not the only government that learned lessons from the second Lebanon war. I think most European governments, after the excitement of playing at international statesmanship to “save” Lebanon had faded, looked at what they had achieved with more realistic eyes. I doubt they were overly concerned for the situation they had placed Israel in, but they can’t have failed to see that allowing Hizbullah to claim a victory and strengthening Iran’s position in the Middle East was a bad outcome for them too.

The result has been that this time round, though Europe has scolded Israel for the sake of appearances, it has done nothing serious to stop it crippling Hamas. Even the ceasefire resolution from the Security Council was done in such a way as to let Israel fight on. Interestingly, the European response is almost identical to the one from Egypt, Saudi Arabia and the PA: A lot of hypocritical hot air and no real pressure. The pressure, if any, will come if the governments of the West decide that Israel has made all the gains it can, before Israel itself reaches the same conclusion. Then they will be only to happy to appear again like the rescuers of innocent Palestinians from an Israel gone berserk.

The hypocrisy of allowing Israel to fight the west’s fight, whilst denying it the public support of western governments, stinks. Sadly, it’s about as much help from Europe as Israel is going to get — but it’s an improvement over 2006.

]]> By: Petra http://blog.z-word.com/2009/01/rushing-to-judge-the-idf/#comment-3241 Petra Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:58:15 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=896#comment-3241 Peter, I think you highlight an important point when you say that the hostile coverage of Israel is not the whole story. Still, as we can see, the anti-Israel stance of many media outlets is taken by those so inclined as giving carte blanche to antisemitism, and it's not just simply depressing to see that some 6 decades after WWII it is possible to march in Amsterdam and call for gassing Jews, but there are also real security implications: first, Jews everywhere have reason to worry about their safety, and secondly, groups like Hamas can count on it that they don't have to come to any agreement in a confrontation with Israel -- they have to hold out just long enough until international political pressure forces Israel to give in to some pseudo-agreement that cares little for Israel's legitimate security concerns. Peter, I think you highlight an important point when you say that the hostile coverage of Israel is not the whole story. Still, as we can see, the anti-Israel stance of many media outlets is taken by those so inclined as giving carte blanche to antisemitism, and it’s not just simply depressing to see that some 6 decades after WWII it is possible to march in Amsterdam and call for gassing Jews, but there are also real security implications: first, Jews everywhere have reason to worry about their safety, and secondly, groups like Hamas can count on it that they don’t have to come to any agreement in a confrontation with Israel — they have to hold out just long enough until international political pressure forces Israel to give in to some pseudo-agreement that cares little for Israel’s legitimate security concerns.

]]> By: peterthehungarian http://blog.z-word.com/2009/01/rushing-to-judge-the-idf/#comment-3239 peterthehungarian Fri, 16 Jan 2009 08:25:21 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=896#comment-3239 “Israel’s international reputation slumped to its lowest point for two decades yesterday, amid condemnation in Britain and Europe of the Israeli army’s behaviour..." I would like to add that this is true regarding the English, French and Spanish language media(no doubt that they are the dominant public opinion forming forces in Europe) but in the ex "peace camp" countries like the Czech Republic, Hungary and Poland with the exception of the more ore less insignificant far left and far right papers the majority of the reports and comments are very balanced or pro-Israeli. In these places the memory of the Pravda style brainwashing technique now happily used by the Guardian, Le Monde etc. is living and the mainstream media is on a much higher moral and professional level than these politically correct versions of the Stuermer, and Radio Moscow. “Israel’s international reputation slumped to its lowest point for two decades yesterday, amid condemnation in Britain and Europe of the Israeli army’s behaviour…”

I would like to add that this is true regarding the English, French and Spanish language media(no doubt that they are the dominant public opinion forming forces in Europe) but in the ex “peace camp” countries like the Czech Republic, Hungary and Poland with the exception of the more ore less insignificant far left and far right papers the majority of the reports and comments are very balanced or pro-Israeli. In these places the memory of the Pravda style brainwashing technique now happily used by the Guardian, Le Monde etc. is living and the mainstream media is on a much higher moral and professional level than these politically correct versions of the Stuermer, and Radio Moscow.

]]> By: jdyer http://blog.z-word.com/2009/01/rushing-to-judge-the-idf/#comment-3238 jdyer Fri, 16 Jan 2009 06:26:08 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=896#comment-3238 This article probably deserves its own entry: "Just what is genetically coded in the history of Judaism? Bill Moyers’ Wretched Failure" Richard Landes takes on Bill Moyers anti-Judaism. http://www.theaugeanstables.com/2009/01/15/just-what-is-genetically-coded-in-the-history-of-judaism-bill-moyers-wretched-failure/#more-1577 Moyer's offered a deeply offensive interpreation of the Gaza fighting linking it to the Hebrew Bible. Here it seesm to me he is following in Jose Saramago's footsteps. Both Professor Alvin Rosenfeld and Dr. Judea Pearl, Daniel Pearl's father have written to Moyers to complain. This article probably deserves its own entry:

“Just what is genetically coded in the history of Judaism? Bill Moyers’ Wretched Failure”

Richard Landes takes on Bill Moyers anti-Judaism.

http://www.theaugeanstables.com/2009/01/15/just-what-is-genetically-coded-in-the-history-of-judaism-bill-moyers-wretched-failure/#more-1577

Moyer’s offered a deeply offensive interpreation of the Gaza fighting linking it to the Hebrew Bible.

Here it seesm to me he is following in Jose Saramago’s footsteps.

Both Professor Alvin Rosenfeld and Dr. Judea Pearl, Daniel Pearl’s father have written to Moyers to complain.

]]> By: Empress Trudy http://blog.z-word.com/2009/01/rushing-to-judge-the-idf/#comment-3236 Empress Trudy Fri, 16 Jan 2009 02:14:41 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=896#comment-3236 It's a very hard headed problem. Many western news organs are pointedly anti Israel to start with. Add to this the fact that their own laziness is borne out by their outsourcing their news gathering to the very Palestinians they purport to report on. Of course it all winds up swirling in a sewer indistinguishable from the daily rant-o-gram from Indymedia. You can confront ordinary people with pictures and facts and it doesn't matter: Guardian, CNN, Reuters says it's such and such. Radical blogs repeat it. It's fact that's that. Discussion closed. The important thing to understand though is that is has nothing at all to do with the Palestinians. In a thousand years the Palestinians could be living in the lap of luxury fully integrated in the world and the Guardian and Glenn Greenwald and the NYTimes or whatever is their modern analog, will still be screaming about the poor poor Palestinians and how the secret inscrutable Jews hold sway over the US government, the media and all the banks. It’s a very hard headed problem. Many western news organs are pointedly anti Israel to start with. Add to this the fact that their own laziness is borne out by their outsourcing their news gathering to the very Palestinians they purport to report on. Of course it all winds up swirling in a sewer indistinguishable from the daily rant-o-gram from Indymedia. You can confront ordinary people with pictures and facts and it doesn’t matter: Guardian, CNN, Reuters says it’s such and such. Radical blogs repeat it. It’s fact that’s that. Discussion closed.

The important thing to understand though is that is has nothing at all to do with the Palestinians. In a thousand years the Palestinians could be living in the lap of luxury fully integrated in the world and the Guardian and Glenn Greenwald and the NYTimes or whatever is their modern analog, will still be screaming about the poor poor Palestinians and how the secret inscrutable Jews hold sway over the US government, the media and all the banks.

]]> By: Petra http://blog.z-word.com/2009/01/rushing-to-judge-the-idf/#comment-3234 Petra Fri, 16 Jan 2009 00:01:22 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=896#comment-3234 Just for the record, some additional information I came accross only now. First, re. the question of the Hamas "traffic" police: "Siam [i.e. the Hamas leader killed today] set up the Executive Force, a security apparatus that developed into Hamas' police after the militants seized Gaza in June 2007." http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1055947.html Secondly, WRT the question of civilian casualties, the IDF has now disputed Palestinian, i.e. Hamas claims that more than half, or even close to two-thirds, of those killed were civilians. I should note that AdamLeBoer also talks in his piece matter-of-fact about an "extremely high" civilian casualty rate. IDF spokesman "Levi told reporters on Wednesday that the CLA had compiled a list with the names of 900 of the Palestinians killed during the fighting. He said that 150 names were of women, children and elderly and that the maximum number of civilians killed so far was 250. … Levi also dismissed OCHA's claim that 43 Palestinians were killed in an IDF attack on a Hamas terror cell that was firing mortars at Israeli forces from within an UNRWA school in Jabalya. Levi said that the CLA knew of 21 Palestinians killed in the attack, including a number of Hamas operatives." http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231950849614&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull Just for the record, some additional information I came accross only now.

First, re. the question of the Hamas “traffic” police:

“Siam [i.e. the Hamas leader killed today] set up the Executive Force, a security apparatus that developed into Hamas’ police after the militants seized Gaza in June 2007.”

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1055947.html

Secondly, WRT the question of civilian casualties, the IDF has now disputed Palestinian, i.e. Hamas claims that more than half, or even close to two-thirds, of those killed were civilians. I should note that AdamLeBoer also talks in his piece matter-of-fact about an “extremely high” civilian casualty rate.

IDF spokesman “Levi told reporters on Wednesday that the CLA had compiled a list with the names of 900 of the Palestinians killed during the fighting. He said that 150 names were of women, children and elderly and that the maximum number of civilians killed so far was 250. …
Levi also dismissed OCHA’s claim that 43 Palestinians were killed in an IDF attack on a Hamas terror cell that was firing mortars at Israeli forces from within an UNRWA school in Jabalya. Levi said that the CLA knew of 21 Palestinians killed in the attack, including a number of Hamas operatives.”

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231950849614&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

]]> By: Petra http://blog.z-word.com/2009/01/rushing-to-judge-the-idf/#comment-3232 Petra Thu, 15 Jan 2009 21:22:36 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=896#comment-3232 Serendipity, I had a look at the Engage piece -- very much ivory tower to my taste, or, as one comment said, navel-gazing. In general, I guess I'm not very much impressed with position that are based on the notion that moral or philosophical considerations can/should trump or ignore political realities. And the sad reality is that both Hamas and Hezbollah define themselves so much through "resistance" to Israel and the "Jewish conspiracy" that giving up on that would trigger an existential crisis for them -- as we see currently, Hamas is holding out, insisting on making all sorts of demands for the cease fire, and not giving a damn about what's going on in Gaza. I think it's quite frightening to see; I just hope the fighting is over soon. Now that the troops have moved into Gaza City, my nerves are fraying -- too much can go wrong there. ClaptheHammer -- during the Lebanon War, we happened to be in Vietnam, with very meager internet access, and on TV mostly the BBC... This experience actually prompted me to focus in my work on how the media portray Israel and the Mideast conflict. Serendipity, I had a look at the Engage piece — very much ivory tower to my taste, or, as one comment said, navel-gazing. In general, I guess I’m not very much impressed with position that are based on the notion that moral or philosophical considerations can/should trump or ignore political realities. And the sad reality is that both Hamas and Hezbollah define themselves so much through “resistance” to Israel and the “Jewish conspiracy” that giving up on that would trigger an existential crisis for them — as we see currently, Hamas is holding out, insisting on making all sorts of demands for the cease fire, and not giving a damn about what’s going on in Gaza. I think it’s quite frightening to see; I just hope the fighting is over soon. Now that the troops have moved into Gaza City, my nerves are fraying — too much can go wrong there.

ClaptheHammer — during the Lebanon War, we happened to be in Vietnam, with very meager internet access, and on TV mostly the BBC… This experience actually prompted me to focus in my work on how the media portray Israel and the Mideast conflict.

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