Comments on: Israel’s Demise (And Other Opportunites to Bend the Mind) http://blog.z-word.com/2009/01/israels-demise-and-other-things-to-bend-the-mind/ Commentary about Zionism, anti-Zionism, antisemitism and the conflict in the Middle East Tue, 22 May 2012 16:21:51 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5-RC1.1 By: Noga http://blog.z-word.com/2009/01/israels-demise-and-other-things-to-bend-the-mind/#comment-3262 Noga Sat, 17 Jan 2009 14:02:06 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=901#comment-3262 "I found the video tough to watch not because of Blumenthal’s demeanor, but because I heard many similar disturbing ideas" So you find it embarrassing that Jews can be religious and explain their plights in terms of God's grace? You find Jews can be unsophisticated and inarticulate, Jews dancing and singing "Am Israel Chai", "disturbing"? Can you cite something that is genuinely disturbing, in the order of "Jews are our dogs" and "To the gas chambers" from anything actually said in this video? Is this the best, or rather, worst madding crowd of Jews, that Blumenthal could find? Are Jews not allowed their humanity, so that what is freely allowed to a Christian or a Muslim, is denied to them, because they are Jews, and should know better than to speak about God and the Mashiach? What is this "better", btw? Max Blumenthal equating the circumcision with the Ashura rites? http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2008-01-19-saturday_N.htm I can't see that this video proves anything or says anything. Many Jews are religious and believe in the coming of the Mashiach. Many Jews are devoted to Israel. Many Jews can actually speak of Hamas (not Arabs, not Palestinians) which they want to see wiped out. “I found the video tough to watch not because of Blumenthal’s demeanor, but because I heard many similar disturbing ideas”

So you find it embarrassing that Jews can be religious and explain their plights in terms of God’s grace?

You find Jews can be unsophisticated and inarticulate, Jews dancing and singing “Am Israel Chai”, “disturbing”?

Can you cite something that is genuinely disturbing, in the order of “Jews are our dogs” and “To the gas chambers” from anything actually said in this video?

Is this the best, or rather, worst madding crowd of Jews, that Blumenthal could find?

Are Jews not allowed their humanity, so that what is freely allowed to a Christian or a Muslim, is denied to them, because they are Jews, and should know better than to speak about God and the Mashiach?

What is this “better”, btw? Max Blumenthal equating the circumcision with the Ashura rites?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2008-01-19-saturday_N.htm

I can’t see that this video proves anything or says anything. Many Jews are religious and believe in the coming of the Mashiach. Many Jews are devoted to Israel. Many Jews can actually speak of Hamas (not Arabs, not Palestinians) which they want to see wiped out.

]]> By: Eric http://blog.z-word.com/2009/01/israels-demise-and-other-things-to-bend-the-mind/#comment-3253 Eric Sat, 17 Jan 2009 00:23:52 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=901#comment-3253 Petra, the link you provided is interesting, of course, but it is an Israeli government site and, therefor, hardly objective. In any event, the blockade was not the subject of Ben's original post, so this is probably not the right space to get into a detailed discussion about the blockade. My thesis is we can walk and chew gum at the same time: we can all agree on the need to attack Hamas, but we can also sit back a bit and reflect on things the Israeli government can perhaps do a little better regarding its relationship with the residents of Gaza. I hope that is not controversial. Petra, the link you provided is interesting, of course, but it is an Israeli government site and, therefor, hardly objective.

In any event, the blockade was not the subject of Ben’s original post, so this is probably not the right space to get into a detailed discussion about the blockade.

My thesis is we can walk and chew gum at the same time: we can all agree on the need to attack Hamas, but we can also sit back a bit and reflect on things the Israeli government can perhaps do a little better regarding its relationship with the residents of Gaza.

I hope that is not controversial.

]]> By: Petra http://blog.z-word.com/2009/01/israels-demise-and-other-things-to-bend-the-mind/#comment-3251 Petra Fri, 16 Jan 2009 22:20:53 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=901#comment-3251 Eric, since you think "we really do need to discuss that blockade", let's discuss that "blockade" by first acknowledging a few facts: after Israel's complete withdrawal from the Gaza strip in fall 2005, the US sponsored negotiations about the rules governing the Rafah crossing between Gaza and Egypt. When these negotiations were concluded in November 2005, Saeb Erekat, the Palestinian negotiator, stated with much satisfaction: "This is the first time in history we will run an international passage by ourselves, and it's the first time Israel does not have a veto over our ability to do so." http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/15/AR2005111500144_2.html Erekat was correct in emphasizing that Israel didn't have a veto; however, Hamas had a veto: after Hamas seized power in Gaza and ousted Fatah, they refused to honor the agreement, and Egypt therefore closed the Rafah crossing. Exactly a year ago, in January 2008, Egypt initiated talks with Hamas about re-opening the crossing, but Hamas insisted on its refusal to recognize the agreement. So, if there was a blockade, it was a blockade imposed by Hamas. Some facts about the "blockade" in the months during the so-called cease fire are here: http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Communiques/2008/Humanitarian_assistance+_to_Gaza_since_June_19_calm_understanding_18_Nov_2008.htm Eric, since you think “we really do need to discuss that blockade”, let’s discuss that “blockade” by first acknowledging a few facts: after Israel’s complete withdrawal from the Gaza strip in fall 2005, the US sponsored negotiations about the rules governing the Rafah crossing between Gaza and Egypt. When these negotiations were concluded in November 2005, Saeb Erekat, the Palestinian negotiator, stated with much satisfaction:
“This is the first time in history we will run an international passage by ourselves, and it’s the first time Israel does not have a veto over our ability to do so.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/15/AR2005111500144_2.html
Erekat was correct in emphasizing that Israel didn’t have a veto; however, Hamas had a veto: after Hamas seized power in Gaza and ousted Fatah, they refused to honor the agreement, and Egypt therefore closed the Rafah crossing. Exactly a year ago, in January 2008, Egypt initiated talks with Hamas about re-opening the crossing, but Hamas insisted on its refusal to recognize the agreement. So, if there was a blockade, it was a blockade imposed by Hamas.

Some facts about the “blockade” in the months during the so-called cease fire are here:

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Communiques/2008/Humanitarian_assistance+_to_Gaza_since_June_19_calm_understanding_18_Nov_2008.htm

]]> By: Ben Cohen http://blog.z-word.com/2009/01/israels-demise-and-other-things-to-bend-the-mind/#comment-3249 Ben Cohen Fri, 16 Jan 2009 20:14:57 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=901#comment-3249 Eric, ok, but you hear lots of different things at rallies. How representative are these voices that you encountered? What strikes me is that most of the signs carried at the pro-Israel rallies emphasize the themes of peace and security for Israel. Unlike the other sides rallies, which are replete with Hamas and Hezbollah flags and signs equating Zionism with Nazism. Eric, ok, but you hear lots of different things at rallies. How representative are these voices that you encountered?

What strikes me is that most of the signs carried at the pro-Israel rallies emphasize the themes of peace and security for Israel. Unlike the other sides rallies, which are replete with Hamas and Hezbollah flags and signs equating Zionism with Nazism.

]]> By: Efraim http://blog.z-word.com/2009/01/israels-demise-and-other-things-to-bend-the-mind/#comment-3247 Efraim Fri, 16 Jan 2009 15:48:13 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=901#comment-3247 The most disgusting reaction to the Gaza conflict I have seen thus far is a "letter signed by UK academics hoping for a military defeat for Israel and “taking sides against Israel” in this war." http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2009/01/16/letter-signed-by-uk-academics-hoping-for-a-military-defeat-for-israel-and-taking-sides-against-israel-in-this-war/#comments The call for an Israeli defeat is a call for the destruction of the Jewish State, a call to genocide. That dozens of UK Professors signed this letter shows the deep inroads antisemitic thought has made into academia in that country. This is all very familiar it reminds one, of the German University turning against their Jewish students and teachers in the 30, as well as the anti Zionist propaganda put out by Soviet professors during the Stalin period and beyond. I fear for the future of higher education in the UK. The most disgusting reaction to the Gaza conflict I have seen thus far is a “letter signed by UK academics hoping for a military defeat for Israel and “taking sides against Israel” in this war.”

http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2009/01/16/letter-signed-by-uk-academics-hoping-for-a-military-defeat-for-israel-and-taking-sides-against-israel-in-this-war/#comments

The call for an Israeli defeat is a call for the destruction of the Jewish State, a call to genocide.

That dozens of UK Professors signed this letter shows the deep inroads antisemitic thought has made into academia in that country. This is all very familiar it reminds one, of the German University turning against their Jewish students and teachers in the 30, as well as the anti Zionist propaganda put out by Soviet professors during the Stalin period and beyond.

I fear for the future of higher education in the UK.

]]> By: jdyer http://blog.z-word.com/2009/01/israels-demise-and-other-things-to-bend-the-mind/#comment-3246 jdyer Fri, 16 Jan 2009 15:37:31 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=901#comment-3246 An Israel lobby without a State is merely a Jewish lobby. The idea that of an all powerful Jewish lobby was a favorite of the America first crowd in the 1930's. People like Lindbergh saw Jews trying to get the US to declare war on Germany on behalf of their European cousins. This was a favorite theme of the antisemites of that period. The more Walt writes on this issues the more he reveals his own kinship with this way of thinking. An Israel lobby without a State is merely a Jewish lobby.

The idea that of an all powerful Jewish lobby was a favorite of the America first crowd in the 1930’s. People like Lindbergh saw Jews trying to get the US to declare war on Germany on behalf of their European cousins. This was a favorite theme of the antisemites of that period.

The more Walt writes on this issues the more he reveals his own kinship with this way of thinking.

]]> By: Eric http://blog.z-word.com/2009/01/israels-demise-and-other-things-to-bend-the-mind/#comment-3245 Eric Fri, 16 Jan 2009 15:34:03 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=901#comment-3245 Hi, Ben, Let's stipulate that Blumenthal is a poor reporter, has a bias, and is a bad person. My point is I don't think the comments on the video were surprising in the slightest. When I hear similar comments at pro-Israel rallies, they are unedited and unexpurgated, and no one shoves a microphone in anybody's face. Hi, Ben,

Let’s stipulate that Blumenthal is a poor reporter, has a bias, and is a bad person.

My point is I don’t think the comments on the video were surprising in the slightest. When I hear similar comments at pro-Israel rallies, they are unedited and unexpurgated, and no one shoves a microphone in anybody’s face.

]]> By: Ben Cohen http://blog.z-word.com/2009/01/israels-demise-and-other-things-to-bend-the-mind/#comment-3244 Ben Cohen Fri, 16 Jan 2009 15:13:44 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=901#comment-3244 Eric, agreed there are discussions to be had. But walking around like a self-righteous schmuck and waving a camera and a microphone at people who have probably never given a radio or TV interview in their lives - and then editing them down to make them look even more silly - is not the way to do it. Eric, agreed there are discussions to be had. But walking around like a self-righteous schmuck and waving a camera and a microphone at people who have probably never given a radio or TV interview in their lives - and then editing them down to make them look even more silly - is not the way to do it.

]]> By: Eric http://blog.z-word.com/2009/01/israels-demise-and-other-things-to-bend-the-mind/#comment-3243 Eric Fri, 16 Jan 2009 15:06:09 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=901#comment-3243 I wouldn't have seen the Blumenthal piece but for this blog. I found the video tough to watch not because of Blumenthal's demeanor, but because I heard many similar disturbing ideas at a recent Boston rally: references to the "Angel of Death" and the hopeful arrival of Moshiach after war. I hear even worse in private conversations with some of my friends on the Jewish religious right. As I wandered through the crowd in Boston on this occasion (and at other rallies for other wars), I often felt, "some of us Jews can rationalize anything." Yes, Hamas had to be attacked. But we really do need to discuss that blockade. I wouldn’t have seen the Blumenthal piece but for this blog.

I found the video tough to watch not because of Blumenthal’s demeanor, but because I heard many similar disturbing ideas at a recent Boston rally: references to the “Angel of Death” and the hopeful arrival of Moshiach after war.

I hear even worse in private conversations with some of my friends on the Jewish religious right.

As I wandered through the crowd in Boston on this occasion (and at other rallies for other wars), I often felt, “some of us Jews can rationalize anything.”

Yes, Hamas had to be attacked. But we really do need to discuss that blockade.

]]>