Comments on: Gaza: A Response to the Open Letter from British Jews http://blog.z-word.com/2009/01/gaza-a-response-to-the-open-letter-from-british-jews/ Commentary about Zionism, anti-Zionism, antisemitism and the conflict in the Middle East Tue, 22 May 2012 15:49:52 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5-RC1.1 By: Inna http://blog.z-word.com/2009/01/gaza-a-response-to-the-open-letter-from-british-jews/#comment-3183 Inna Tue, 13 Jan 2009 07:58:39 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=859#comment-3183 "Here in the US Reform’s quasi official stance is interchangeable with the left end of the left of the spectrum, such as it is in the US. Reform synagogues spend more time and effort fundraising for Darfur and the SPCA (Animal Rights) then they do for Jewish education" I take it you are not Reform. I am and you're wrong. Regards, Inna “Here in the US Reform’s quasi official stance is interchangeable with the left end of the left of the spectrum, such as it is in the US. Reform synagogues spend more time and effort fundraising for Darfur and the SPCA (Animal Rights) then they do for Jewish education”

I take it you are not Reform. I am and you’re wrong.

Regards,

Inna

]]> By: Empress Trudy http://blog.z-word.com/2009/01/gaza-a-response-to-the-open-letter-from-british-jews/#comment-3155 Empress Trudy Mon, 12 Jan 2009 05:38:18 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=859#comment-3155 I am still shocked you are shocked by Reform's position, in the UK or elsewhere. Here in the US Reform's quasi official stance is interchangeable with the left end of the left of the spectrum, such as it is in the US. Reform synagogues spend more time and effort fundraising for Darfur and the SPCA (Animal Rights) then they do for Jewish education. Which by the by is now essentially bankrupt everywhere thanks to Madoff. No, I wouldn't be surprised at all. We, all of us at least give some lip service to interdenominational dialogs but we are always getting into fights with Reform over at least pretending to have a stance vis a vis Judaism in lieu of simply saying "You're right, we should try harder to be like you." Delete this if you like. I'm on a shul education board and my family has been involved in Jewish education in Conservative and Orthodox congregations for more than 30 years. And I've never found that boundless conciliation has ever attracted more tolerance from the people you already know don't appreciate you. Generally they respect you more if you stand for something. This is not to say that Reform in the UK has to march lockstep with everyone else. But talking out of school in the name of lord knows what is....what then? Noble? Insightful? What would Hillel say? Or Akiva for that matter? I am still shocked you are shocked by Reform’s position, in the UK or elsewhere. Here in the US Reform’s quasi official stance is interchangeable with the left end of the left of the spectrum, such as it is in the US. Reform synagogues spend more time and effort fundraising for Darfur and the SPCA (Animal Rights) then they do for Jewish education. Which by the by is now essentially bankrupt everywhere thanks to Madoff. No, I wouldn’t be surprised at all. We, all of us at least give some lip service to interdenominational dialogs but we are always getting into fights with Reform over at least pretending to have a stance vis a vis Judaism in lieu of simply saying “You’re right, we should try harder to be like you.”

Delete this if you like. I’m on a shul education board and my family has been involved in Jewish education in Conservative and Orthodox congregations for more than 30 years. And I’ve never found that boundless conciliation has ever attracted more tolerance from the people you already know don’t appreciate you. Generally they respect you more if you stand for something.

This is not to say that Reform in the UK has to march lockstep with everyone else. But talking out of school in the name of lord knows what is….what then? Noble? Insightful?

What would Hillel say? Or Akiva for that matter?

]]> By: Eric http://blog.z-word.com/2009/01/gaza-a-response-to-the-open-letter-from-british-jews/#comment-3148 Eric Mon, 12 Jan 2009 00:30:06 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=859#comment-3148 Hi, Englender, I think what Rabbi Bayfield said, in the quote you referenced and in the open letter referenced in the very first post in this thread, was wonderful. No, the statements by Rabbi Bayfield were interpreted by at least one Chabad rabbi in Massachusetts, as "condemning Israel." He is far from alone, as we all know. My point is that many of the strongest objections to a reasonable cessation of hostilities in Gaza will come from the American Jewish right, as exemplified by my Chabad rabbi friend in Wellesley, Massachusetts. This is just the beginning. If President Obama stakes out some new positions on issues in the Middle East, as I hope he does, we will witness a war within our community, in my humble opinion. Hi, Englender,

I think what Rabbi Bayfield said, in the quote you referenced and in the open letter referenced in the very first post in this thread, was wonderful.

No, the statements by Rabbi Bayfield were interpreted by at least one Chabad rabbi in Massachusetts, as “condemning Israel.” He is far from alone, as we all know.

My point is that many of the strongest objections to a reasonable cessation of hostilities in Gaza will come from the American Jewish right, as exemplified by my Chabad rabbi friend in Wellesley, Massachusetts.

This is just the beginning. If President Obama stakes out some new positions on issues in the Middle East, as I hope he does, we will witness a war within our community, in my humble opinion.

]]> By: Englender http://blog.z-word.com/2009/01/gaza-a-response-to-the-open-letter-from-british-jews/#comment-3146 Englender Sun, 11 Jan 2009 22:23:41 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=859#comment-3146 Trudy, there is big difference between Lutherans and Unitarian and most of Reform congregations do not aspire to be one or the other. One can be honestly wrong. Let’s no ascribe false motives to their position. In any case I am confused, Eric; the head of the Reform movement in London was at a pro-Israel and pro-peace rally and is quoted as saying the following: “"Everyone should support Israel's determination to weaken the hold of the terrorists. It is only when terror and blackmail are successfully opposed that the moderate majority can feel safe to make peace," said Rabbi Dr Tony Bayfield, head of the Movement for Reform Judaism.” http://www.somethingjewish.co.uk/articles/2894_rally_for_peace.htm How is this a statement “condemning Israel?” Trudy, there is big difference between Lutherans and Unitarian and most of Reform congregations do not aspire to be one or the other.

One can be honestly wrong. Let’s no ascribe false motives to their position.

In any case I am confused, Eric; the head of the Reform movement in London was at a pro-Israel and pro-peace rally and is quoted as saying the following:

“”Everyone should support Israel’s determination to weaken the hold of the terrorists. It is only when terror and blackmail are successfully opposed that the moderate majority can feel safe to make peace,” said Rabbi Dr Tony Bayfield, head of the Movement for Reform Judaism.”

http://www.somethingjewish.co.uk/articles/2894_rally_for_peace.htm

How is this a statement “condemning Israel?”

]]> By: David T http://blog.z-word.com/2009/01/gaza-a-response-to-the-open-letter-from-british-jews/#comment-3142 David T Sun, 11 Jan 2009 20:51:15 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=859#comment-3142 Jefferson was a Unitarian. There's nothing wrong with them. Jefferson was a Unitarian. There’s nothing wrong with them.

]]> By: Sabato http://blog.z-word.com/2009/01/gaza-a-response-to-the-open-letter-from-british-jews/#comment-3141 Sabato Sun, 11 Jan 2009 20:50:17 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=859#comment-3141 "Hamas Map Found in Operation" "Israel says map shows Hamas puts Gaza civilians at risk" http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/09/hamas.sketch/ “Hamas Map Found in Operation”

“Israel says map shows Hamas puts Gaza civilians at risk”

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/09/hamas.sketch/

]]> By: Ben Cohen http://blog.z-word.com/2009/01/gaza-a-response-to-the-open-letter-from-british-jews/#comment-3139 Ben Cohen Sun, 11 Jan 2009 20:25:15 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=859#comment-3139 Trudy, we encourage free debate here, but next time you write a comment like the one addressed to Eric, it will be deleted. This kind of offensive baiting has no place here. And I would remind you that there are Reform Jews fighting in the IDF. In general, let this serve as one of the periodic reminders we issue to commenters: no antisemitism, no racism (and that includes anti-Arab and anti-Muslim racism,) no obscenities and - please - try to keep it intelligent. Trudy, we encourage free debate here, but next time you write a comment like the one addressed to Eric, it will be deleted. This kind of offensive baiting has no place here. And I would remind you that there are Reform Jews fighting in the IDF.

In general, let this serve as one of the periodic reminders we issue to commenters: no antisemitism, no racism (and that includes anti-Arab and anti-Muslim racism,) no obscenities and - please - try to keep it intelligent.

]]> By: Empress Trudy http://blog.z-word.com/2009/01/gaza-a-response-to-the-open-letter-from-british-jews/#comment-3138 Empress Trudy Sun, 11 Jan 2009 20:08:34 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=859#comment-3138 Why should that shock you, Eric? Reform wants to be Unitarian/Lutheran more than it wants to be Jewish. Why should that shock you, Eric? Reform wants to be Unitarian/Lutheran more than it wants to be Jewish.

]]> By: Englender http://blog.z-word.com/2009/01/gaza-a-response-to-the-open-letter-from-british-jews/#comment-3136 Englender Sun, 11 Jan 2009 18:29:15 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=859#comment-3136 Joanne: " Shiraz Socialist, which is, as far as I know, supportive of Israel." They can be supportive of Israel and be wrong about events in Gaza. The fact that their only source is the BBC is troubling. The BBC isn't known for fairness to Israel in its reporting it also uses second hand sources in Gaza who have a decidedly anti Israel point of view. Joanne: ” Shiraz Socialist, which is, as far as I know, supportive of Israel.”

They can be supportive of Israel and be wrong about events in Gaza.

The fact that their only source is the BBC is troubling. The BBC isn’t known for fairness to Israel in its reporting it also uses second hand sources in Gaza who have a decidedly anti Israel point of view.

]]> By: Joanne http://blog.z-word.com/2009/01/gaza-a-response-to-the-open-letter-from-british-jews/#comment-3134 Joanne Sun, 11 Jan 2009 18:08:59 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=859#comment-3134 This is a new posting that I've lifted today almost word for word from Shiraz Socialist, which is, as far as I know, supportive of Israel. Please tell me if this post is right or not. If not, then what is really going on: "In a report from the Gaza Border earlier today, BBC News reported that little, if any, aid was expected to reach Gaza during today’s three hour ‘ceasefire’, because of the prohibition on working during Shabbes. A piss-poor excuse dressed up in a shabby cloak of pseudo-religious casuistry, as for the religiously observant, the preservation of life overrides any such prohibition... "While fake piety is used to justify denying the delivery of aid to the besieged citizens of Gaza, no-one seems to have passed the message about having a day off to the IDF, who have been merrily going about the business of blowing the shit out of Gaza all day. According to one UN official, Gaza is 'on the cusp of catastrophe.' "Even staunch friends of Isreal are now in despair...and it becomes ever more difficult to put forward a class-based solution. Meanwhile malevolent professional Israel - haters are having a field day, portraying Israel as a uniquely illegitimate state, tainted from birth with racism and expansionism: a travesty of historical fact, but a very popular viewpoint these days, for entirely understandable reasons. This barbarity must stop immediately!" This is a new posting that I’ve lifted today almost word for word from Shiraz Socialist, which is, as far as I know, supportive of Israel.

Please tell me if this post is right or not. If not, then what is really going on:

“In a report from the Gaza Border earlier today, BBC News reported that little, if any, aid was expected to reach Gaza during today’s three hour ‘ceasefire’, because of the prohibition on working during Shabbes. A piss-poor excuse dressed up in a shabby cloak of pseudo-religious casuistry, as for the religiously observant, the preservation of life overrides any such prohibition…

“While fake piety is used to justify denying the delivery of aid to the besieged citizens of Gaza, no-one seems to have passed the message about having a day off to the IDF, who have been merrily going about the business of blowing the shit out of Gaza all day. According to one UN official, Gaza is ‘on the cusp of catastrophe.’

“Even staunch friends of Isreal are now in despair…and it becomes ever more difficult to put forward a class-based solution. Meanwhile malevolent professional Israel - haters are having a field day, portraying Israel as a uniquely illegitimate state, tainted from birth with racism and expansionism: a travesty of historical fact, but a very popular viewpoint these days, for entirely understandable reasons. This barbarity must stop immediately!”

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