Comments on: Bernard Madoff and the Socialism of Fools http://blog.z-word.com/2008/12/bernard-madoff-and-the-socialism-of-fools/ Commentary about Zionism, anti-Zionism, antisemitism and the conflict in the Middle East Mon, 21 May 2012 14:59:54 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5-RC1.1 By: Madoff: Antisemitism’s Subtle Shift at Z-Word Blog http://blog.z-word.com/2008/12/bernard-madoff-and-the-socialism-of-fools/#comment-2662 Madoff: Antisemitism’s Subtle Shift at Z-Word Blog Fri, 26 Dec 2008 19:45:02 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=672#comment-2662 [...] said something about this recently, in reminding readers of August Bebel’s warning against the “socialism of fools.” [...] […] said something about this recently, in reminding readers of August Bebel’s warning against the “socialism of fools.” […]

]]> By: NadavT http://blog.z-word.com/2008/12/bernard-madoff-and-the-socialism-of-fools/#comment-2538 NadavT Wed, 17 Dec 2008 05:47:29 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=672#comment-2538 Thank you for clarifying your point. Am I correct to understand that the example of Austria's left-wing political rhetoric pre-WW2 was meant to illustrate a failure to respond adequately to anti-semitism, rather than an attempt to link Jews and capitalism? If so, then I believe it is an inconsequential distinction. Using pre-WW2 Austrian political rhetoric as in any attempt to illustrate a typical left-wing response to antisemitism is absurd on its face. Antisemitism was rampant in Austria at that time, and nothing any political party said there should be taken as a typical example of any political perspective, save the perspective of anti-semitism. In response to your other points: a) Surely it is possible for accusations of anti-semitism to be well-founded in one context and baseless in another, isn't it? In other words, it's certainly possible for anti-semites to grumble about Jews and money when the stock market tanks, while at the same time other individuals use the accusation of anti-semitism to stifle criticism of Israel's policies. This is not to say some anti-Israel criticism isn't anti-semitic, of course, but that much of it that is not is treated as if it were. b) If you have specific examples of "parts of the left" who refuse to condemn Hamas, please provide them. I don't doubt that they exist, but when you refer to them in vague terms as "part of the left," you use them to characterize a much larger group, which is inappropriate. Thank you for clarifying your point. Am I correct to understand that the example of Austria’s left-wing political rhetoric pre-WW2 was meant to illustrate a failure to respond adequately to anti-semitism, rather than an attempt to link Jews and capitalism? If so, then I believe it is an inconsequential distinction. Using pre-WW2 Austrian political rhetoric as in any attempt to illustrate a typical left-wing response to antisemitism is absurd on its face. Antisemitism was rampant in Austria at that time, and nothing any political party said there should be taken as a typical example of any political perspective, save the perspective of anti-semitism.

In response to your other points:

a) Surely it is possible for accusations of anti-semitism to be well-founded in one context and baseless in another, isn’t it? In other words, it’s certainly possible for anti-semites to grumble about Jews and money when the stock market tanks, while at the same time other individuals use the accusation of anti-semitism to stifle criticism of Israel’s policies. This is not to say some anti-Israel criticism isn’t anti-semitic, of course, but that much of it that is not is treated as if it were.

b) If you have specific examples of “parts of the left” who refuse to condemn Hamas, please provide them. I don’t doubt that they exist, but when you refer to them in vague terms as “part of the left,” you use them to characterize a much larger group, which is inappropriate.

]]> By: Ben Cohen http://blog.z-word.com/2008/12/bernard-madoff-and-the-socialism-of-fools/#comment-2532 Ben Cohen Tue, 16 Dec 2008 22:41:05 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=672#comment-2532 NadavT - since I am not making that argument, I have no reply to your point. All I will do is reiterate that, a) the financial crisis provides one more reason for those parts of the left who believe that antisemitism is a trick, designed to divert attention from Israel, to rethink that position, b) that those same parts of the left have refused to condemn Hamas for its antisemitism, on the grounds that they see such rhetoric as resistance. But now that Hamas is offering a standard antisemitic account of the financial crisis, will their western cheerleaders understand the truth about them? <i>If you want to make the case that the left somehow has more of a tendency to link Jews and money than the right does, you’re going to have to do a much better job of finding supporting examples.</i> I'm not saying that at all. I am saying that historically, it has been the place of the left to <b>resist</b> these antisemitic accounts, although they have not always done so honorably. Austria is just one of many examples. NadavT - since I am not making that argument, I have no reply to your point. All I will do is reiterate that, a) the financial crisis provides one more reason for those parts of the left who believe that antisemitism is a trick, designed to divert attention from Israel, to rethink that position, b) that those same parts of the left have refused to condemn Hamas for its antisemitism, on the grounds that they see such rhetoric as resistance. But now that Hamas is offering a standard antisemitic account of the financial crisis, will their western cheerleaders understand the truth about them?

If you want to make the case that the left somehow has more of a tendency to link Jews and money than the right does, you’re going to have to do a much better job of finding supporting examples.

I’m not saying that at all. I am saying that historically, it has been the place of the left to resist these antisemitic accounts, although they have not always done so honorably. Austria is just one of many examples.

]]> By: NadavT http://blog.z-word.com/2008/12/bernard-madoff-and-the-socialism-of-fools/#comment-2529 NadavT Tue, 16 Dec 2008 15:28:50 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=672#comment-2529 Are you honestly trying to characterize the "left's" conflation of capitalism with Judaism based on what was said in pre-WW2 Austria? Seriously? This is the country that Hitler annexed without firing a single shot, and it's somehow noteworthy that a political party there didn't like Jews? You might as well suggest that all automakers have anti-semitic tendencies based on the example of Henry Ford. In pre-war Europe, you could find anti-semitic sentiments from parties on all sides of the political spectrum. And European anti-semites displayed a remarkable ability to accuse Jews of being both money-grubbing capitalists and freedom-hating communists at the same time! Pfeifer's essay provides a very interesting analysis of a political party that has remained in continuous power since its ugly pre-WW2 days, but it's specious to use that analysis to generalize about the left's association with anti-semitism. If you want to make the case that the left somehow has more of a tendency to link Jews and money than the right does, you're going to have to do a much better job of finding supporting examples. Are you honestly trying to characterize the “left’s” conflation of capitalism with Judaism based on what was said in pre-WW2 Austria? Seriously? This is the country that Hitler annexed without firing a single shot, and it’s somehow noteworthy that a political party there didn’t like Jews? You might as well suggest that all automakers have anti-semitic tendencies based on the example of Henry Ford.

In pre-war Europe, you could find anti-semitic sentiments from parties on all sides of the political spectrum. And European anti-semites displayed a remarkable ability to accuse Jews of being both money-grubbing capitalists and freedom-hating communists at the same time!

Pfeifer’s essay provides a very interesting analysis of a political party that has remained in continuous power since its ugly pre-WW2 days, but it’s specious to use that analysis to generalize about the left’s association with anti-semitism. If you want to make the case that the left somehow has more of a tendency to link Jews and money than the right does, you’re going to have to do a much better job of finding supporting examples.

]]> By: Rich W. http://blog.z-word.com/2008/12/bernard-madoff-and-the-socialism-of-fools/#comment-2525 Rich W. Tue, 16 Dec 2008 06:04:20 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=672#comment-2525 I am afraid it is a lot more than just four guys in their bedrooms putting this stuff out. I hear it all the time now, from people I've never expected to hear it from. It is on a lot of comment logs on web sites. Go read them. The bigger sites that edit posts delete or don't publish them, but it has suddenly become acceptable to talk about "the Jews on Wall Street" stealing. Even the popular press slides in their little coded words. The daily news mentions the Madoff was "the Jewish bond". The WSJ runs a story on the decimation of "Jewish charity". Everyone is finding a way to make the connection. It's a terrible and sad thing to see this. I've never believed that the US had this deep reseviour of anti-semitism but watching and reading now, I realize I was wrong. I am afraid it is a lot more than just four guys in their bedrooms putting this stuff out. I hear it all the time now, from people I’ve never expected to hear it from. It is on a lot of comment logs on web sites. Go read them. The bigger sites that edit posts delete or don’t publish them, but it has suddenly become acceptable to talk about “the Jews on Wall Street” stealing.

Even the popular press slides in their little coded words. The daily news mentions the Madoff was “the Jewish bond”. The WSJ runs a story on the decimation of “Jewish charity”. Everyone is finding a way to make the connection.

It’s a terrible and sad thing to see this. I’ve never believed that the US had this deep reseviour of anti-semitism but watching and reading now, I realize I was wrong.

]]> By: Livovich http://blog.z-word.com/2008/12/bernard-madoff-and-the-socialism-of-fools/#comment-2489 Livovich Mon, 15 Dec 2008 00:08:08 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=672#comment-2489 Most finance criminals are hardly Jews and in any case of Madoff’s financial victims have been Jews. Most finance criminals are hardly Jews and
in any case of Madoff’s financial victims have been Jews.

]]> By: Ben Cohen http://blog.z-word.com/2008/12/bernard-madoff-and-the-socialism-of-fools/#comment-2488 Ben Cohen Sun, 14 Dec 2008 21:16:18 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=672#comment-2488 <i>Wait! Time out! Let’s take a deep breath.</i> Eh? Someone want to explain where that comes from? More broadly, the left has not been immune from equating capitalism with Judaism, or from pandering to those who do. Karl Pfeifer gave us one example of that in his essay on Austria. I think the reluctance of many on the left to identify Hamas as antisemitic, even when they make claims straight out of the "Protocols," demonstrates a similar mindset. As to whether Jews have anything to celebrate or not, why is that point relevant? I am arguing that the left needs to get away from anti-imperialist dogma and its associated identity politics, because these approaches are flawed in themselves, and because they offer no answers to the mass of people, in the US and elsewhere, who are trying to understand the current financial crisis. Incidentally, if you want examples of clear thinking on the left about these questions, I recommend going here (http://robertreich.blogspot.com/) and here (http://www.dissentmagazine.org/online.php?keyword=+Financial+Crisis) Wait! Time out! Let’s take a deep breath.

Eh? Someone want to explain where that comes from?

More broadly, the left has not been immune from equating capitalism with Judaism, or from pandering to those who do. Karl Pfeifer gave us one example of that in his essay on Austria. I think the reluctance of many on the left to identify Hamas as antisemitic, even when they make claims straight out of the “Protocols,” demonstrates a similar mindset.

As to whether Jews have anything to celebrate or not, why is that point relevant? I am arguing that the left needs to get away from anti-imperialist dogma and its associated identity politics, because these approaches are flawed in themselves, and because they offer no answers to the mass of people, in the US and elsewhere, who are trying to understand the current financial crisis.

Incidentally, if you want examples of clear thinking on the left about these questions, I recommend going here (http://robertreich.blogspot.com/) and here (http://www.dissentmagazine.org/online.php?keyword=+Financial+Crisis)

]]> By: Eric http://blog.z-word.com/2008/12/bernard-madoff-and-the-socialism-of-fools/#comment-2487 Eric Sun, 14 Dec 2008 19:54:14 +0000 http://blog.z-word.com/?p=672#comment-2487 "Will the left denounce the antisemitic account of the financial crisis?" Wait! Time out! Let's take a deep breath. Before we take the plunge into a critique of the "left," can we first try to unpack two things: first, why do many Jews "start peering nervously over their shoulders" upon revelations of financial scandal involving Jews? Is it different than how we react to other events having nothing to do with financial scandals (e.g. J.F.K)? Second, while I am aware of the potential for problems, is there, in fact, "an antisemitic account of the financial crisis," at least here in the United States? Maybe my skin is too thick, but do we really care what four guys write from their basements on the blog of "Dealbreaker?" The Lehman Bros. rumors, the old 9/11 rumors, and the inane comments from the other "usual suspects," seem only to support the idea that every paranoid with access to a computer can get our attention. Ever since the financial crisis erupted and I saw the public concerns about "antisemitism" from some prominent Jewish voices, I have thought we have gotten ahead of ourselves. I think here in the States we have a lot to celebrate, much as our parents and grandparents had reason to celebrate during the bad days of the 1930's when the Coughlins and Lindbergs had the microphone. I think we should focus on the positives at the moment, and there are many. “Will the left denounce the antisemitic account of the financial crisis?”

Wait! Time out! Let’s take a deep breath.

Before we take the plunge into a critique of the “left,” can we first try to unpack two things: first, why do many Jews “start peering nervously over their shoulders” upon revelations of financial scandal involving Jews? Is it different than how we react to other events having nothing to do with financial scandals (e.g. J.F.K)?

Second, while I am aware of the potential for problems, is there, in fact, “an antisemitic account of the financial crisis,” at least here in the United States? Maybe my skin is too thick, but do we really care what four guys write from their basements on the blog of “Dealbreaker?” The Lehman Bros. rumors, the old 9/11 rumors, and the inane comments from the other “usual suspects,” seem only to support the idea that every paranoid with access to a computer can get our attention.

Ever since the financial crisis erupted and I saw the public concerns about “antisemitism” from some prominent Jewish voices, I have thought we have gotten ahead of ourselves. I think here in the States we have a lot to celebrate, much as our parents and grandparents had reason to celebrate during the bad days of the 1930’s when the Coughlins and Lindbergs had the microphone. I think we should focus on the positives at the moment, and there are many.

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