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	<title>Comments on: More &#8220;Speaking Out&#8221;</title>
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	<link>http://blog.z-word.com/2008/11/more-speaking-out/</link>
	<description>Commentary about Zionism, anti-Zionism, antisemitism and the conflict in the Middle East</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 09 Feb 2012 02:04:50 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: wendy kellett</title>
		<link>http://blog.z-word.com/2008/11/more-speaking-out/#comment-2332</link>
		<dc:creator>wendy kellett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Nov 2008 14:52:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.z-word.com/?p=562#comment-2332</guid>
		<description>I'm not Jewish;I'm an atheist,(for what it's worth).
Proud to be a longterm and loyal,supporter of Israel and I too have visited Yad Vashem:(it left a lasting impression).
The double standards beggar belief:recently I read that 10 people have been hanged in Iran this week,one of whom,according to her lawyer,was in a 'very,very bad state'.What chance did such a hapless woman have before an Islamic court?
Silence from Ms Alibhai-Brown and her fellow travellers.
Fianally,what would she do if her neighbours decided that they wished to liquidate her just for being there?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not Jewish;I&#8217;m an atheist,(for what it&#8217;s worth).<br />
Proud to be a longterm and loyal,supporter of Israel and I too have visited Yad Vashem:(it left a lasting impression).<br />
The double standards beggar belief:recently I read that 10 people have been hanged in Iran this week,one of whom,according to her lawyer,was in a &#8216;very,very bad state&#8217;.What chance did such a hapless woman have before an Islamic court?<br />
Silence from Ms Alibhai-Brown and her fellow travellers.<br />
Fianally,what would she do if her neighbours decided that they wished to liquidate her just for being there?</p>
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		<title>By: soovey</title>
		<link>http://blog.z-word.com/2008/11/more-speaking-out/#comment-2330</link>
		<dc:creator>soovey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Nov 2008 10:59:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.z-word.com/?p=562#comment-2330</guid>
		<description>Alibhai-Brown is on record somewhere as having written after the 7/7 attacks that she had hoped they were caused by IRA rather than Muslims.  That says at lot about her, doesn't it?

And as for outrage about the situation in Gaza, she should read Comment is Free on Guardian Online where every variation on that theme is regularly played out,  including by Hamas activist and suicide terror supporter Azzam ("I would if I could") Tamimi, and various useful idiots.

Judging by what I read today on ENGAGE, Gaza is doomed anyway, regardless of what Israel may or may not do, since the population is stuck with "democratically elected" Hamas, which has outlawed Fatah.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alibhai-Brown is on record somewhere as having written after the 7/7 attacks that she had hoped they were caused by IRA rather than Muslims.  That says at lot about her, doesn&#8217;t it?</p>
<p>And as for outrage about the situation in Gaza, she should read Comment is Free on Guardian Online where every variation on that theme is regularly played out,  including by Hamas activist and suicide terror supporter Azzam (&#8221;I would if I could&#8221;) Tamimi, and various useful idiots.</p>
<p>Judging by what I read today on ENGAGE, Gaza is doomed anyway, regardless of what Israel may or may not do, since the population is stuck with &#8220;democratically elected&#8221; Hamas, which has outlawed Fatah.</p>
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		<title>By: shriber</title>
		<link>http://blog.z-word.com/2008/11/more-speaking-out/#comment-2283</link>
		<dc:creator>shriber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 14:24:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.z-word.com/?p=562#comment-2283</guid>
		<description>There is no implicit warning in the passage, Mark. That's the point isn't it?

It is actually Yasmin Alibhai-Brown  who is warning "non Jews" like  Lorna Fitzsimons not to side with Israel or they will be attacked by people like her. 


I wonder if  Lorna Fitzsimons replied somewhere to this vicious attack.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is no implicit warning in the passage, Mark. That&#8217;s the point isn&#8217;t it?</p>
<p>It is actually Yasmin Alibhai-Brown  who is warning &#8220;non Jews&#8221; like  Lorna Fitzsimons not to side with Israel or they will be attacked by people like her. </p>
<p>I wonder if  Lorna Fitzsimons replied somewhere to this vicious attack.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://blog.z-word.com/2008/11/more-speaking-out/#comment-2282</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 13:51:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.z-word.com/?p=562#comment-2282</guid>
		<description>Sorry if this sounds terminally thick but I can't even see an "implicit" warning in the offending passage. Surely all it is saying is no more in effect, than that Israel is under attack, defending itself, and so should not be criticised for doing so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry if this sounds terminally thick but I can&#8217;t even see an &#8220;implicit&#8221; warning in the offending passage. Surely all it is saying is no more in effect, than that Israel is under attack, defending itself, and so should not be criticised for doing so.</p>
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		<title>By: shriber</title>
		<link>http://blog.z-word.com/2008/11/more-speaking-out/#comment-2281</link>
		<dc:creator>shriber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 04:51:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.z-word.com/?p=562#comment-2281</guid>
		<description>Let's see how the Israel haters in Britain are going to square their love for "justice" and their countries dealing with Tibet?


"Did Britain Just Sell Tibet?"
By ROBERT BARNETT


"THE financial crisis is going to do more than increase unemployment, bankruptcy and homelessness. It is also likely to reshape international alignments, sometimes in ways that we would not expect. 

As Western powers struggle with the huge scale of the measures needed to revive their economies, they have turned increasingly to China. Last month, for example, Gordon Brown, the British prime minister, asked China to give money to the International Monetary Fund, in return for which Beijing would expect an increase in its voting share. 

Now there is speculation that a trade-off for this arrangement involved a major shift in the British position on Tibet, whose leading representatives in exile this weekend called on their leader, the Dalai Lama, to stop sending envoys to Beijing — bringing the faltering talks between China and the exiles to a standstill. 

The exiles’ decision followed an announcement on Oct. 29 by David Miliband, the British foreign secretary, that after almost a century of recognizing Tibet as an autonomous entity, Britain had changed its mind. Mr. Miliband said that Britain had decided to recognize Tibet as part of the People’s Republic of China. He even apologized that Britain had not done so earlier..."

Read the whole article here


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/25/opinion/25barnett.html?_r=1&#38;hp=&#38;pagewanted=print


Anyone for boycotting British Universities?

Will the British UCU boycott itself?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let&#8217;s see how the Israel haters in Britain are going to square their love for &#8220;justice&#8221; and their countries dealing with Tibet?</p>
<p>&#8220;Did Britain Just Sell Tibet?&#8221;<br />
By ROBERT BARNETT</p>
<p>&#8220;THE financial crisis is going to do more than increase unemployment, bankruptcy and homelessness. It is also likely to reshape international alignments, sometimes in ways that we would not expect. </p>
<p>As Western powers struggle with the huge scale of the measures needed to revive their economies, they have turned increasingly to China. Last month, for example, Gordon Brown, the British prime minister, asked China to give money to the International Monetary Fund, in return for which Beijing would expect an increase in its voting share. </p>
<p>Now there is speculation that a trade-off for this arrangement involved a major shift in the British position on Tibet, whose leading representatives in exile this weekend called on their leader, the Dalai Lama, to stop sending envoys to Beijing — bringing the faltering talks between China and the exiles to a standstill. </p>
<p>The exiles’ decision followed an announcement on Oct. 29 by David Miliband, the British foreign secretary, that after almost a century of recognizing Tibet as an autonomous entity, Britain had changed its mind. Mr. Miliband said that Britain had decided to recognize Tibet as part of the People’s Republic of China. He even apologized that Britain had not done so earlier&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>Read the whole article here</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/25/opinion/25barnett.html?_r=1&amp;hp=&amp;pagewanted=print" rel="nofollow">http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/25/opinion/25barnett.html?_r=1&amp;hp=&amp;pagewanted=print</a></p>
<p>Anyone for boycotting British Universities?</p>
<p>Will the British UCU boycott itself?</p>
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		<title>By: shriber</title>
		<link>http://blog.z-word.com/2008/11/more-speaking-out/#comment-2278</link>
		<dc:creator>shriber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 22:56:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.z-word.com/?p=562#comment-2278</guid>
		<description>“Apparently for many of those who dislike Israel, the fact that one can support Israel publically and yet not be Jewish is beyond their comprehension. After all, for them, the questions of Israel and Palestine are reducible to “identity”, “race”, Jewish psyches” etc. and never about politics.”

If this were the case, does it also mean that any supporter of the Palestinian cause must be in some way an “Arab, a Muslim” or in the pay of people who are?

Again, it is interesting that antisemite make claims of “underhanded Jewish influence” being the cause of support for Israel but never make the claim that underhanded Arab or Muslim influence is the cause of support for the Arab cause?

It’s hard to decide if antisemitism makes people stupid or if stupid people gravitate towards antisemitism. In any case there is certainly a correlation if not a cause between these two states of mind.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“Apparently for many of those who dislike Israel, the fact that one can support Israel publically and yet not be Jewish is beyond their comprehension. After all, for them, the questions of Israel and Palestine are reducible to “identity”, “race”, Jewish psyches” etc. and never about politics.”</p>
<p>If this were the case, does it also mean that any supporter of the Palestinian cause must be in some way an “Arab, a Muslim” or in the pay of people who are?</p>
<p>Again, it is interesting that antisemite make claims of “underhanded Jewish influence” being the cause of support for Israel but never make the claim that underhanded Arab or Muslim influence is the cause of support for the Arab cause?</p>
<p>It’s hard to decide if antisemitism makes people stupid or if stupid people gravitate towards antisemitism. In any case there is certainly a correlation if not a cause between these two states of mind.</p>
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		<title>By: Noga</title>
		<link>http://blog.z-word.com/2008/11/more-speaking-out/#comment-2275</link>
		<dc:creator>Noga</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 21:03:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.z-word.com/?p=562#comment-2275</guid>
		<description>Norm's blogpost can be found here:

http://normblog.typepad.com/normblog/2008/07/barack-obama-and-the-jewish-tailors.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Norm&#8217;s blogpost can be found here:</p>
<p><a href="http://normblog.typepad.com/normblog/2008/07/barack-obama-and-the-jewish-tailors.html" rel="nofollow">http://normblog.typepad.com/normblog/2008/07/barack-obama-and-the-jewish-tailors.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Noga</title>
		<link>http://blog.z-word.com/2008/11/more-speaking-out/#comment-2274</link>
		<dc:creator>Noga</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 21:02:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.z-word.com/?p=562#comment-2274</guid>
		<description>Eamonn says: "Writing as someone who is not himself Jewish, I find this reference to Lorna Fitzsimons’s ethno-religious status a bit odd. Why does it need to be mentioned at all? Of what relevance is it? Does Alibhai-Brown think that one must necessarily be Jewish one’s self in order to find some of Israel’s activities to be worthy of support? Does she think that non-Jews have to be paid to express such opinions?"

Saul says: "Apparently for many of those who dislike Israel, the fact that one can support Israel publically and yet not be Jewish is beyond their comprehension."

Norm Geras pointed to such a twisted view of Israel's case in his July 24 blogpost, commenting on a Guardian's leading editorial which claimed:

"When a presumptive US presidential candidate arrives in Jerusalem, he willingly dons a jacket designed by Israeli tailors. He is compelled to call the country a miracle, to visit the Israeli Holocaust Memorial Yad Vashem and to link the memory of the 6 million Jews who died in Europe to Israeli victims of Palestinian violence today."

He called it "foul stuff":

"Is there anything wrong with a visitor to Israel paying his respects at Yad Vashem to the memory of several million dead?"

Moreover:

" But notice something else in the general presentation here: though Obama dons the jacket 'willingly', it seems that he is 'compelled' to do the things he does - to say miracle, visit Yad Vashem, make the lamented link. Really? We are to believe, for example, that he would not have gone to Yad Vashem just on his own steam? How does the Guardian know this? We are to believe that the Israelis have a way of getting visiting politicians to do what they otherwise mightn't? Being Jews, they'll have the knack for that, I suppose."

It's as if there is something counter-intuitive about a person's position when it does not quite align itself with the sentiments of Alibhai-Brown. It seems unnatural to her that anybody would choose, upon reflection and free will, to speak up for Israel. The most disturbing feature in her rhetoric is the complete absence of critical self-awareness when it comes to putting forth these astonishing suspicions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eamonn says: &#8220;Writing as someone who is not himself Jewish, I find this reference to Lorna Fitzsimons’s ethno-religious status a bit odd. Why does it need to be mentioned at all? Of what relevance is it? Does Alibhai-Brown think that one must necessarily be Jewish one’s self in order to find some of Israel’s activities to be worthy of support? Does she think that non-Jews have to be paid to express such opinions?&#8221;</p>
<p>Saul says: &#8220;Apparently for many of those who dislike Israel, the fact that one can support Israel publically and yet not be Jewish is beyond their comprehension.&#8221;</p>
<p>Norm Geras pointed to such a twisted view of Israel&#8217;s case in his July 24 blogpost, commenting on a Guardian&#8217;s leading editorial which claimed:</p>
<p>&#8220;When a presumptive US presidential candidate arrives in Jerusalem, he willingly dons a jacket designed by Israeli tailors. He is compelled to call the country a miracle, to visit the Israeli Holocaust Memorial Yad Vashem and to link the memory of the 6 million Jews who died in Europe to Israeli victims of Palestinian violence today.&#8221;</p>
<p>He called it &#8220;foul stuff&#8221;:</p>
<p>&#8220;Is there anything wrong with a visitor to Israel paying his respects at Yad Vashem to the memory of several million dead?&#8221;</p>
<p>Moreover:</p>
<p>&#8221; But notice something else in the general presentation here: though Obama dons the jacket &#8216;willingly&#8217;, it seems that he is &#8216;compelled&#8217; to do the things he does - to say miracle, visit Yad Vashem, make the lamented link. Really? We are to believe, for example, that he would not have gone to Yad Vashem just on his own steam? How does the Guardian know this? We are to believe that the Israelis have a way of getting visiting politicians to do what they otherwise mightn&#8217;t? Being Jews, they&#8217;ll have the knack for that, I suppose.&#8221;</p>
<p>It&#8217;s as if there is something counter-intuitive about a person&#8217;s position when it does not quite align itself with the sentiments of Alibhai-Brown. It seems unnatural to her that anybody would choose, upon reflection and free will, to speak up for Israel. The most disturbing feature in her rhetoric is the complete absence of critical self-awareness when it comes to putting forth these astonishing suspicions.</p>
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		<title>By: Saul</title>
		<link>http://blog.z-word.com/2008/11/more-speaking-out/#comment-2273</link>
		<dc:creator>Saul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 20:37:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.z-word.com/?p=562#comment-2273</guid>
		<description>The reference to Fitzsimmons relgion may stem from the fact that because of her support for Israel it was alleged that not only was she Jewish but that she was an MP for the seat of Israel (or some such). In other words, she was subject to an antisemitic campaign. 

Apparently for many of those who dislike Israel, the fact that one can support Israel publically and yet not be Jewish is beyond their comprehension. After all, for them, the questions of Israel and Palestine are reducible to "identity", "race", Jewish psyches" etc. and never about politics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The reference to Fitzsimmons relgion may stem from the fact that because of her support for Israel it was alleged that not only was she Jewish but that she was an MP for the seat of Israel (or some such). In other words, she was subject to an antisemitic campaign. </p>
<p>Apparently for many of those who dislike Israel, the fact that one can support Israel publically and yet not be Jewish is beyond their comprehension. After all, for them, the questions of Israel and Palestine are reducible to &#8220;identity&#8221;, &#8220;race&#8221;, Jewish psyches&#8221; etc. and never about politics.</p>
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		<title>By: shriber</title>
		<link>http://blog.z-word.com/2008/11/more-speaking-out/#comment-2271</link>
		<dc:creator>shriber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 19:32:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.z-word.com/?p=562#comment-2271</guid>
		<description>One should keep track as to how often an anti-Zionist columnist writing for a major newspaper complains that they are not being to allows to express their opinions. 


Yasmin Alibhai-Brown is by no means the first one. 


My favorite example thus far is  GEOFFREY WHEATCROFT writing for the NY Times said this:


"Not only does Judt lament that the United States has suffered a catastrophic loss of international influence in recent years, thanks to “self-defeating and even irrational” conduct, in the Middle East above all; he says that the reflexive charge of anti-Semitism against critics of Israel, and of the American alliance with Israel, must ultimately be “bad for Jews — since it means that genuine anti-Semitism may also in time cease to be taken seriously, thanks to the Israel lobby’s abuse of the term.” Anyone who writes on this subject is asking for trouble (à qui ...), and Judt’s notably brave and forthright essays have brought him much obloquy."

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/20/books/review/Wheatcroft-t.html?ref=books&#38;pagewanted=print


The "obloquy" he mentions is a couple of critiques by some writers in The New Republic"


Israel haters claim the right to attack Israel but when someone criticizes them they claim that they are being censored. 


Wheatcroft’s “(à qui ...)” is classic. I’d like him to point out one attack of Israel by him had been rejected by a major newspaper. 

 Same with  Yasmin Alibhai-Brown!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One should keep track as to how often an anti-Zionist columnist writing for a major newspaper complains that they are not being to allows to express their opinions. </p>
<p>Yasmin Alibhai-Brown is by no means the first one. </p>
<p>My favorite example thus far is  GEOFFREY WHEATCROFT writing for the NY Times said this:</p>
<p>&#8220;Not only does Judt lament that the United States has suffered a catastrophic loss of international influence in recent years, thanks to “self-defeating and even irrational” conduct, in the Middle East above all; he says that the reflexive charge of anti-Semitism against critics of Israel, and of the American alliance with Israel, must ultimately be “bad for Jews — since it means that genuine anti-Semitism may also in time cease to be taken seriously, thanks to the Israel lobby’s abuse of the term.” Anyone who writes on this subject is asking for trouble (à qui &#8230;), and Judt’s notably brave and forthright essays have brought him much obloquy.&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/20/books/review/Wheatcroft-t.html?ref=books&amp;pagewanted=print" rel="nofollow">http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/20/books/review/Wheatcroft-t.html?ref=books&amp;pagewanted=print</a></p>
<p>The &#8220;obloquy&#8221; he mentions is a couple of critiques by some writers in The New Republic&#8221;</p>
<p>Israel haters claim the right to attack Israel but when someone criticizes them they claim that they are being censored. </p>
<p>Wheatcroft’s “(à qui &#8230;)” is classic. I’d like him to point out one attack of Israel by him had been rejected by a major newspaper. </p>
<p> Same with  Yasmin Alibhai-Brown!</p>
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