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	<title>Comments on: Kristallnacht: Who Were the Victims?</title>
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	<link>http://blog.z-word.com/2008/11/kristallnacht-who-were-the-victims/</link>
	<description>Commentary about Zionism, anti-Zionism, antisemitism and the conflict in the Middle East</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 21 May 2012 14:26:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: shriber</title>
		<link>http://blog.z-word.com/2008/11/kristallnacht-who-were-the-victims/#comment-1929</link>
		<dc:creator>shriber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 23:37:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.z-word.com/?p=479#comment-1929</guid>
		<description>"as I was saying..."


Well I happen to know a lot about Irish hisotry, living in the Boston area and my wife being part-Irish....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;as I was saying&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>Well I happen to know a lot about Irish hisotry, living in the Boston area and my wife being part-Irish&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Eamonn McDonagh</title>
		<link>http://blog.z-word.com/2008/11/kristallnacht-who-were-the-victims/#comment-1926</link>
		<dc:creator>Eamonn McDonagh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 23:30:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.z-word.com/?p=479#comment-1926</guid>
		<description>as I was saying... :=))</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>as I was saying&#8230; :=))</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: shriber</title>
		<link>http://blog.z-word.com/2008/11/kristallnacht-who-were-the-victims/#comment-1925</link>
		<dc:creator>shriber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 22:57:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.z-word.com/?p=479#comment-1925</guid>
		<description>Anyway, if it’s de Valera, I am not at all obsessed with him.

I recognize that he was a great Irish patriot and leader, but he also adopted a policy of neutrality during the Second World War and went so far as to sign a condolence book at the death of Hitler:



“Neutrality in World War II

Main articles: Irish neutrality during World War II and The Emergency (Ireland)
By September 1939, a general European war was inevitable. On 2 September, de Valera advised Dáil Éireann that neutrality was the best policy for the country. In this he was almost uniformly supported by the Dáil and the country at large (including the pro-British elements). This gave sweeping new powers to the government for the duration of the Emergency, such as internment, censorship of the press and correspondence, and the government control of the economy. The Emergency Powers Act finally lapsed on 2 September 1946.[18][19]

This status remained throughout the war, despite pressure from Chamberlain (who offered de Valera a united Ireland in return for military assistance) and Churchill. However, de Valera did accept a request from Northern Ireland for fire tenders to assist in fighting fires following the Belfast Blitz.

Famously, and against the strongly-expressed advice of his advisers, de Valera offered his condolences to the German Minister in Dublin on the death of Hitler in 1945, in accordance with the diplomatic protocol applying to neutral states. Soon afterwards, however, Churchill was perceived as forfeiting the political advantage that this gave him, when de Valera emerged with dignity and honour in the eyes of the Irish people from a bitter exchange of words in two famous radio addresses after the end of the war in Europe.[20]”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89amon_de_Valera#Neutrality_in_World_War_II

(Excuse my linking to Wikipedia, there are better sources but I don’t have time to go through my books to find a citation.

The record on Jewish refugees was mixed to say the least.

(The Wikipedia article tries to present a more positive picture than was the case.)

“World War II and aftermath

The state was nominally neutral during World War II, known within the Republic of Ireland as "The Emergency" although it is estimated that about 100,000 men from Ireland took part on the side of the Allies.[10]

There was some official indifference from the political establishment to the Jewish victims of the Holocaust during and after the war. This indifference would later be described by Justice Minister Michael McDowell as being "antipathetic, hostile and unfeeling".[11] Dr. Mervyn O'Driscoll of University College Cork reported on the unofficial and official barriers that prevented Jews from finding refuge in Ireland although the barriers have been down ever since:

“ Although overt anti-Semitism was not typical, the southern Irish were indifferent to the Nazi persecution of the Jews and those fleeing the third Reich....A successful applicant in 1938 was typically wealthy, middle-aged or elderly, single from Austria, Roman Catholic and desiring to retire in peace to Ireland and not engage in employment. Only a few Viennese bankers and industrialists met the strict criterion of being Catholic, although possibly of Jewish descent, capable of supporting themselves comfortably without involvement in the economic life of the country.[12] ” 

Post-war, Jewish groups had great difficulty in getting refugee status for Jewish children, whilst at the same time, a plan to bring over four hundred Catholic Children from the Rhineland encountered no difficulties.[13] The Department of Justice explained in 1948 that:

“ It has always been the policy of the Minister for Justice to restrict the admission of Jewish aliens, for the reason that any substantial increase in our Jewish population might give rise to an anti-Semitic problem.[14] ” 

However, de Valera over-ruled the Department of Justice and the one hundred and fifty refugee Jewish children were brought to Ireland in 1948. Earlier, in 1946, one hundred Jewish children from Poland were bought to Clonyn Castle in County Meath by a London Jewish charity.[15] In 1952 he again had to overrule the Department of Justice to admit five Orthodox families who were fleeing the Communists. In 1966, the Dublin Jewish community arranged the planting and dedication of the Éamon de Valera Forest in Israel, near Nazareth, in recognition of his consistent support for Ireland's Jews.[16]”


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Ireland#World_War_II_and_aftermath</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anyway, if it’s de Valera, I am not at all obsessed with him.</p>
<p>I recognize that he was a great Irish patriot and leader, but he also adopted a policy of neutrality during the Second World War and went so far as to sign a condolence book at the death of Hitler:</p>
<p>“Neutrality in World War II</p>
<p>Main articles: Irish neutrality during World War II and The Emergency (Ireland)<br />
By September 1939, a general European war was inevitable. On 2 September, de Valera advised Dáil Éireann that neutrality was the best policy for the country. In this he was almost uniformly supported by the Dáil and the country at large (including the pro-British elements). This gave sweeping new powers to the government for the duration of the Emergency, such as internment, censorship of the press and correspondence, and the government control of the economy. The Emergency Powers Act finally lapsed on 2 September 1946.[18][19]</p>
<p>This status remained throughout the war, despite pressure from Chamberlain (who offered de Valera a united Ireland in return for military assistance) and Churchill. However, de Valera did accept a request from Northern Ireland for fire tenders to assist in fighting fires following the Belfast Blitz.</p>
<p>Famously, and against the strongly-expressed advice of his advisers, de Valera offered his condolences to the German Minister in Dublin on the death of Hitler in 1945, in accordance with the diplomatic protocol applying to neutral states. Soon afterwards, however, Churchill was perceived as forfeiting the political advantage that this gave him, when de Valera emerged with dignity and honour in the eyes of the Irish people from a bitter exchange of words in two famous radio addresses after the end of the war in Europe.[20]”</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89amon_de_Valera#Neutrality_in_World_War_II" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89amon_de_Valera#Neutrality_in_World_War_II</a></p>
<p>(Excuse my linking to Wikipedia, there are better sources but I don’t have time to go through my books to find a citation.</p>
<p>The record on Jewish refugees was mixed to say the least.</p>
<p>(The Wikipedia article tries to present a more positive picture than was the case.)</p>
<p>“World War II and aftermath</p>
<p>The state was nominally neutral during World War II, known within the Republic of Ireland as &#8220;The Emergency&#8221; although it is estimated that about 100,000 men from Ireland took part on the side of the Allies.[10]</p>
<p>There was some official indifference from the political establishment to the Jewish victims of the Holocaust during and after the war. This indifference would later be described by Justice Minister Michael McDowell as being &#8220;antipathetic, hostile and unfeeling&#8221;.[11] Dr. Mervyn O&#8217;Driscoll of University College Cork reported on the unofficial and official barriers that prevented Jews from finding refuge in Ireland although the barriers have been down ever since:</p>
<p>“ Although overt anti-Semitism was not typical, the southern Irish were indifferent to the Nazi persecution of the Jews and those fleeing the third Reich&#8230;.A successful applicant in 1938 was typically wealthy, middle-aged or elderly, single from Austria, Roman Catholic and desiring to retire in peace to Ireland and not engage in employment. Only a few Viennese bankers and industrialists met the strict criterion of being Catholic, although possibly of Jewish descent, capable of supporting themselves comfortably without involvement in the economic life of the country.[12] ” </p>
<p>Post-war, Jewish groups had great difficulty in getting refugee status for Jewish children, whilst at the same time, a plan to bring over four hundred Catholic Children from the Rhineland encountered no difficulties.[13] The Department of Justice explained in 1948 that:</p>
<p>“ It has always been the policy of the Minister for Justice to restrict the admission of Jewish aliens, for the reason that any substantial increase in our Jewish population might give rise to an anti-Semitic problem.[14] ” </p>
<p>However, de Valera over-ruled the Department of Justice and the one hundred and fifty refugee Jewish children were brought to Ireland in 1948. Earlier, in 1946, one hundred Jewish children from Poland were bought to Clonyn Castle in County Meath by a London Jewish charity.[15] In 1952 he again had to overrule the Department of Justice to admit five Orthodox families who were fleeing the Communists. In 1966, the Dublin Jewish community arranged the planting and dedication of the Éamon de Valera Forest in Israel, near Nazareth, in recognition of his consistent support for Ireland&#8217;s Jews.[16]”</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Ireland#World_War_II_and_aftermath" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Ireland#World_War_II_and_aftermath</a></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: shriber</title>
		<link>http://blog.z-word.com/2008/11/kristallnacht-who-were-the-victims/#comment-1922</link>
		<dc:creator>shriber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 22:10:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.z-word.com/?p=479#comment-1922</guid>
		<description>"Shriber, you seem a bit obsessed with Dev…"

Who is Dev? Is that de-Valera?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Shriber, you seem a bit obsessed with Dev…&#8221;</p>
<p>Who is Dev? Is that de-Valera?</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Eamonn McDonagh</title>
		<link>http://blog.z-word.com/2008/11/kristallnacht-who-were-the-victims/#comment-1920</link>
		<dc:creator>Eamonn McDonagh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 21:46:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.z-word.com/?p=479#comment-1920</guid>
		<description>Shriber, you seem a bit obsessed with Dev...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shriber, you seem a bit obsessed with Dev&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: shriber</title>
		<link>http://blog.z-word.com/2008/11/kristallnacht-who-were-the-victims/#comment-1915</link>
		<dc:creator>shriber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 21:17:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.z-word.com/?p=479#comment-1915</guid>
		<description>It’s hard to believe that The Guardian didn’t know when they asked Paul Oestreicher, a chaplain at the University of Sussex, to write about Kristallnacht the point of view he would bring to the article.

David Hirsh’ existential thesis about antisemitism precludes him from writing about the author’s biography as significant fact to the point of view he or she brings to their view of Jews.

As a Christian chaplain Oestreicher can only view this tragedy from a Christian rather than a Jewish perspective.  Still the fact that the Chaplain does mention the difficulties for the Jewish refugees in finding places of refuge anywhere outside Germany does show that Jews had few options at the time. 

Here is where Obstructer’s view of Palestinian Arab victimhood gets ridiculous. Arab hostility to Jews in Palestine and elsewhere antedates Kristallnacht. There were anti Jewish rights in Hebron in the 20’s and there anti-Jewish decrees in various parts of the Muslim world going back to the early days of that religion. 

His view reminds me of the view held by various European and others governments at the time that too allow Jews into the country would lead to a rise in antisemitism. (This is the excuse used by Éamon de Valera’s Irish government not to take in Jewish refugees.)

In essence, Paul Oestreicher is offering the same view 70 years after the tragedy that led to the Holocaust. 

Paul Oestreicher view of the events of Kristallnacht is not just non-Jewish it is anti-Jewish in as much as it says that Jews have no natural right to a country of their own anywhere in the world not even in the land of their ancestors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It’s hard to believe that The Guardian didn’t know when they asked Paul Oestreicher, a chaplain at the University of Sussex, to write about Kristallnacht the point of view he would bring to the article.</p>
<p>David Hirsh’ existential thesis about antisemitism precludes him from writing about the author’s biography as significant fact to the point of view he or she brings to their view of Jews.</p>
<p>As a Christian chaplain Oestreicher can only view this tragedy from a Christian rather than a Jewish perspective.  Still the fact that the Chaplain does mention the difficulties for the Jewish refugees in finding places of refuge anywhere outside Germany does show that Jews had few options at the time. </p>
<p>Here is where Obstructer’s view of Palestinian Arab victimhood gets ridiculous. Arab hostility to Jews in Palestine and elsewhere antedates Kristallnacht. There were anti Jewish rights in Hebron in the 20’s and there anti-Jewish decrees in various parts of the Muslim world going back to the early days of that religion. </p>
<p>His view reminds me of the view held by various European and others governments at the time that too allow Jews into the country would lead to a rise in antisemitism. (This is the excuse used by Éamon de Valera’s Irish government not to take in Jewish refugees.)</p>
<p>In essence, Paul Oestreicher is offering the same view 70 years after the tragedy that led to the Holocaust. </p>
<p>Paul Oestreicher view of the events of Kristallnacht is not just non-Jewish it is anti-Jewish in as much as it says that Jews have no natural right to a country of their own anywhere in the world not even in the land of their ancestors.</p>
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