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	<title>Comments on: A Palestinian State For Its Own Sake</title>
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	<link>http://blog.z-word.com/2008/09/a-palestinian-state-for-its-own-sake/</link>
	<description>Commentary about Zionism, anti-Zionism, antisemitism and the conflict in the Middle East</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 13 Mar 2010 23:27:59 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Roger Cohen And Wishful Thinking, Part 974 at Z-Word Blog</title>
		<link>http://blog.z-word.com/2008/09/a-palestinian-state-for-its-own-sake/#comment-9837</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger Cohen And Wishful Thinking, Part 974 at Z-Word Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Feb 2010 00:28:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] and for two reasons: firstly, because I&#8217;ve set out my views on Palestinian rights at length here before and secondly, because I don&#8217;t feel that writers should have to prove that they are on [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] and for two reasons: firstly, because I&#8217;ve set out my views on Palestinian rights at length here before and secondly, because I don&#8217;t feel that writers should have to prove that they are on [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: A Real State For Palestinians at Z-Word Blog</title>
		<link>http://blog.z-word.com/2008/09/a-palestinian-state-for-its-own-sake/#comment-2298</link>
		<dc:creator>A Real State For Palestinians at Z-Word Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Nov 2008 17:03:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.z-word.com/?p=356#comment-2298</guid>
		<description>[...] already written a post about why the Palestinians must have their own state. To this I&#8217;d now like to add that one of [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] already written a post about why the Palestinians must have their own state. To this I&#8217;d now like to add that one of [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Roddy Frankel</title>
		<link>http://blog.z-word.com/2008/09/a-palestinian-state-for-its-own-sake/#comment-1467</link>
		<dc:creator>Roddy Frankel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Sep 2008 06:21:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.z-word.com/?p=356#comment-1467</guid>
		<description>Since Israel has evicted all Jews from Gaza and withdrawn it's military, what has prevented the local Palestinian (Hamas or Fatah) governments from declaring Gaza an independent state, and petitioning the UN for recognition? They didn't, and still don't need Israel's permission. They could always negotiate for more land later. The answer, I suspect, is that they do not want to be held to the standards required of a UN member state. As long as they claim "occupation" they can engage in as much "resistance" as they wish. As a state, they would suddenly have to behave more responsibly, which they consider "humiliating."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since Israel has evicted all Jews from Gaza and withdrawn it&#8217;s military, what has prevented the local Palestinian (Hamas or Fatah) governments from declaring Gaza an independent state, and petitioning the UN for recognition? They didn&#8217;t, and still don&#8217;t need Israel&#8217;s permission. They could always negotiate for more land later. The answer, I suspect, is that they do not want to be held to the standards required of a UN member state. As long as they claim &#8220;occupation&#8221; they can engage in as much &#8220;resistance&#8221; as they wish. As a state, they would suddenly have to behave more responsibly, which they consider &#8220;humiliating.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Michael B</title>
		<link>http://blog.z-word.com/2008/09/a-palestinian-state-for-its-own-sake/#comment-1435</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Sep 2008 21:22:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.z-word.com/?p=356#comment-1435</guid>
		<description>An iron fist, masked in a velvet glove, is still an iron fist.

Sari Nusseibeh, the one example you offer, is very much a mixed bag.  I'm always willing to listen to what people have to say, and to observe what they actually do, but Sari Nusseibeh, for example, has suggested the Palestinians should retake Jaffa, has at times said they should advance a one state solution (which would represent the dissolution of Israel) and has also forwarded the idea of a wholesale right of return, which likewise would effectively represent the dissolution of Israel.

There is also a notable problem with Nusseibeh's historical accounts, for example &lt;a href="http://www.nysun.com/arts/palestinian-two-step/53631/" rel="nofollow"&gt;as reflected in this review&lt;/a&gt; of Nusseibeh's "Once Upon a Country: A Palestinian Life."

In general however, keeping the "idea" of a two state solution in mind is well and good and is in fact a worthwhile goal.  But to imagine that long-term goal might be achieved within any imminent timeframe and barring absolutely fundamental reforms throughout that society - reforms that are nowhere in sight (***) - is to indulge an illusion, a tragic one at that.

*** one salient example is the fact that within Hamas's charter they acknowledge themselves to be an integral part of the Muslim Brotherhood and more importantly overtly declare that the destruction of Israel remains their goal and likewise, in fact, do not recognize the state of Israel.  Note, for example, articles 7, 8, 11, 13 and 32, prominently, in the Hamas charter, effectively their founding document and constitution, &lt;a href="http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.

There is too much territory to cover, but that serves as a partical response.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An iron fist, masked in a velvet glove, is still an iron fist.</p>
<p>Sari Nusseibeh, the one example you offer, is very much a mixed bag.  I&#8217;m always willing to listen to what people have to say, and to observe what they actually do, but Sari Nusseibeh, for example, has suggested the Palestinians should retake Jaffa, has at times said they should advance a one state solution (which would represent the dissolution of Israel) and has also forwarded the idea of a wholesale right of return, which likewise would effectively represent the dissolution of Israel.</p>
<p>There is also a notable problem with Nusseibeh&#8217;s historical accounts, for example <a href="http://www.nysun.com/arts/palestinian-two-step/53631/" rel="nofollow">as reflected in this review</a> of Nusseibeh&#8217;s &#8220;Once Upon a Country: A Palestinian Life.&#8221;</p>
<p>In general however, keeping the &#8220;idea&#8221; of a two state solution in mind is well and good and is in fact a worthwhile goal.  But to imagine that long-term goal might be achieved within any imminent timeframe and barring absolutely fundamental reforms throughout that society - reforms that are nowhere in sight (***) - is to indulge an illusion, a tragic one at that.</p>
<p>*** one salient example is the fact that within Hamas&#8217;s charter they acknowledge themselves to be an integral part of the Muslim Brotherhood and more importantly overtly declare that the destruction of Israel remains their goal and likewise, in fact, do not recognize the state of Israel.  Note, for example, articles 7, 8, 11, 13 and 32, prominently, in the Hamas charter, effectively their founding document and constitution, <a href="http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>.</p>
<p>There is too much territory to cover, but that serves as a partical response.</p>
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		<title>By: Rebecca</title>
		<link>http://blog.z-word.com/2008/09/a-palestinian-state-for-its-own-sake/#comment-1424</link>
		<dc:creator>Rebecca</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Sep 2008 03:00:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.z-word.com/?p=356#comment-1424</guid>
		<description>Thank you, Eamonn, for this sane response. Michael B, the Palestinians are not a consortium of gangs. Try reading some Palestinian history as written by Palestinians (for example by Sari Nusseibeh). Whatever we may wish, the Palestinians are a people, and trying to deny that, and keep them under occupation, is doomed to failure. I want the state of Israel to keep on existing as a Jewish state, and I think the only way is to make sure that there is a Palestinian state existing alongside it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you, Eamonn, for this sane response. Michael B, the Palestinians are not a consortium of gangs. Try reading some Palestinian history as written by Palestinians (for example by Sari Nusseibeh). Whatever we may wish, the Palestinians are a people, and trying to deny that, and keep them under occupation, is doomed to failure. I want the state of Israel to keep on existing as a Jewish state, and I think the only way is to make sure that there is a Palestinian state existing alongside it.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael B</title>
		<link>http://blog.z-word.com/2008/09/a-palestinian-state-for-its-own-sake/#comment-1423</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Sep 2008 01:27:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.z-word.com/?p=356#comment-1423</guid>
		<description>Perhaps, though it's not at all clear.

If a consortium of gangs, together with their families and offspring - some or even many of whom are variously sympathetic characters - decide to embark upon a decades long struggle to take over Hells Kitchen and surrounding territory, also using, in notable part, systematic tactics that involve murder, mayhem, suicide/homicide acts, etc. committed against civilian populations, that also include a sophisticated mix of media and other cooptations - do we in such a case eventually give in to their demands to create a separate enclave, a separate, sovereign nation/state, granting it de facto ligitimacy?

A rough-hewn analogy, but, essentially, what are the minimal, legitimate standards a people needs to measure up to in order to authentically and legitimately claim a nation/state status?  It is not in the least clear that the Sunni Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank measure up to that minimal standard.

That doesn't even broach the question of what they will represent should a facade of formal legitimacy be granted.  It is probable, it is highly probable, that their "struggle," against Israel, would simply continue.  Virtually all the evidence suggests precisely that conclusion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps, though it&#8217;s not at all clear.</p>
<p>If a consortium of gangs, together with their families and offspring - some or even many of whom are variously sympathetic characters - decide to embark upon a decades long struggle to take over Hells Kitchen and surrounding territory, also using, in notable part, systematic tactics that involve murder, mayhem, suicide/homicide acts, etc. committed against civilian populations, that also include a sophisticated mix of media and other cooptations - do we in such a case eventually give in to their demands to create a separate enclave, a separate, sovereign nation/state, granting it de facto ligitimacy?</p>
<p>A rough-hewn analogy, but, essentially, what are the minimal, legitimate standards a people needs to measure up to in order to authentically and legitimately claim a nation/state status?  It is not in the least clear that the Sunni Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank measure up to that minimal standard.</p>
<p>That doesn&#8217;t even broach the question of what they will represent should a facade of formal legitimacy be granted.  It is probable, it is highly probable, that their &#8220;struggle,&#8221; against Israel, would simply continue.  Virtually all the evidence suggests precisely that conclusion.</p>
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